Transcript 0:00 We're one month into the WNBA season, so we're checking in on our first week overreactions to see how those takes are aging. This is Ball Up Top here on No Cap Space. 0:21 [upbeat music] And what is up everyone? It is No Cap Space, it's Ball Up Top, a women's basketball podcast. I'm Andrew Hobner, happy to be with you, happy you are here with us. 0:29 I am joined by Tyler DeLuca and Shawny Powell, and as always, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts. Apple, Spotify, YouTube, Amazon, whatever else. 0:40 Rate us, review us, give us five stars, say something kind, say something creative. We may be sharing it on the pod soon. We got the hotline coming up. Tyler will explain that a little bit later- Woo... in the show. 0:51 A cool new segment that we got. But folks- Mm... we had a five out column that ran at the beginning of the year that was hot takes and overreactions of the first weekend of games. 1:07 And so with that in mind, we're going to take a look at this and look one month in and see how the takes have aged. And I would like to offer- Number one, guys, first take I had after the weekend... 1:17 a disclaimer that, as a Black woman, I had nothing to do with this. Yeah. [laughs] This is Andrew's, Andrew's overreactions. This was solely- Andrew's overreactions [laughs]... my overreactions. 1:24 Number one, Dallas Wings WNBA title contender. Feeling pretty good out the gate on that one. You know what? Yeah, I don't hate that one. [laughs] Not too bad, Andrew. I don't hate that one. 1:35 Never mind, this one was all of ours. Uh, thank you. Uh, like [laughs] Oh no, it wasn't... It can still collapse. I will be there if it does. 1:42 [laughs] But, you know, six and three, wins against the Liberty, the Aces, and, uh, who is the third? Oh, and the Fever. You know, solid wins. Mm-hmm. 1:53 Uh, losses to Atlanta twice, so that's gonna be, like, their biggest test. Can they get over that hurdle? But right now, 2:02 I said, me and Greer argued about it 'cause I said they, they still got an Arike problem, and right now they do kinda have an Arike problem. She went one of 11 a couple nights ago, has been in a bit of a slump. 2:13 They seem to be working around it, though. Mm. She'll probably round out the form, or she won't. And I get to sit here and say, like, "Hey, Paige ruined an All-W first team guard," 'cause [laughs] go check the resume. 2:29 God. That's fair. Check the resume. Yeah, to me it's... 2:32 I, I mean, look, Arike is the, the, the shooting splits are the shooting splits, but I think generally speaking, if there's been the buy-in that you were, you would be hoping to see from her. Um, Allana Smith, 2:43 w- are, are you prepared to make this team a contender for real? 2:46 Like, that's where I'm at right now, because I think that obviously Dallas has been one of the, like, the highest performing teams so far in the W, and are absolutely, like, on, like, on contender trajectory. 2:56 But in terms to, like, when we have this idea of our top four teams going into the season, which is the, the, the win loss record has not reflected that in terms of what we expected to come into the season. 3:06 Obviously Minnesota and Golden State notably kinda jumping into this top area. But Dallas has been, uh, amongst those teams as well to do this. So for me, I mean, look, Paige is incredibly consistent. 3:17 The productivity is always gonna be there with Paige. 3:19 I just, I, obviously, like, we have the con- the conversation about wanting more volume maybe, but the floor of Paige Bueckers you're, you're never gonna have to worry about. 3:27 I, I feel incredibly confident in that, and that is her being one of the best guards in the entire WNBA, one of the best players in the entire WNBA. That's the floor of Paige Bueckers that you're getting here. 3:35 AZ Fudd entering the starting lineup has done exactly what you would hope for and more in terms of being able to be three and D now that the volume's kinda coming from three-point range, but also being able to hit the mid-range, be able to take the ball off the dribble, attack closeouts. 3:48 You're getting everything you want there. Jessica Shepard's been one of the best players in the entire league this season out of, like, nowhere in comparison to the fanfare around her signing. 3:57 To me, you have, you, you always are gonna have the worry for me generally with a system like this when it comes to if you have an off night from three or if a team learns how to kinda shut the faucet off a little bit from three-point range, what do you do? 4:09 What is the pivot? I still have general worries about that, but ultimately I'm looking at Allana Smith. I'm, I, I said it on five out, I'll say it again, I'm pocket watching. I'm bag watching. 4:18 You're getting paid too much money to be coming off the bench and to be playing like this. 4:21 Whether it's a, it's a, a, a thing with the mask, you know, and the nose and like just kinda getting back from that or whatever it might be, this cannot stand playing like this given the amount of money. 4:30 That's where we're at in the W where the difference in contracts, it, it makes a difference now if you are paying this amount of money for someone coming off the bench and not producing at a high rate. 4:38 Are they on the road to being a contender? At this moment, I would say yes, but there's definitely some things I want to see in terms of variance in how they win. 4:46 Um, the, the defense has caught up in, in terms of, like, when this was written, so that's kinda checked off a little bit. 4:52 So it's really variance in wins and Allana Smith kinda getting her stuff together and, and being the player that they're paying her to go and be. Hello? 5:00 I don't even know if you need Allana Smith to be above and beyond even. I just think you need her to be serviceable. And I think that's the same thing- I think it's really just defense Yeah. 5:08 And I think that's the same thing with Arike too is, like- Mm-hmm... do you need Arike as a t- 24 point per game scorer anymore in this offense? I don't think you do. 5:16 Um, I, I think the biggest question through the first month of the season, you know, from the selfishness in the locker room comments to the opening games to the rotations and how they worked was, is the three guard system of AZ, Paige, Arike going to yield some type of results? 5:33 And the answer is a resounding yeah. Now, the thing with this is I think Paige guarantees a high floor. 5:42 I think that is the difference between her as a guard and somebody like Caitlin Clark is, like, I think, I think Paige has a higher floor, Caitlin has a higher ceiling, like that Bird to Rossi thing, Shawny, that we were, that we always kinda talk about when it comes to them. 5:57 And I think that the biggest thing that I take away from what Dallas has been able to do, especially in the last three weeks, is, A, you've got the ballsTo put your million dollar player on the bench if she's not helping you. 6:11 Mm-hmm. 6:11 You s- identified that a Wakir is a legitimate player that can be implemented into this lineup, and you've also figured out the thing that Gino Oriema has always tried to impress upon any coach or analyst or media person following Paige and AZ is sometimes you gotta bark up their tree to get the most out of them. 6:34 And in that respect, it seems like that coach is handling it the best and the right way, you know? 6:42 And, and when we talk about the split and difference between the dynamic of that coach and, um, that their players versus, say, what's going on in Indiana right now, is sometimes you might need the, the brash coach to get the more passive player to be more intense game to game. 7:04 Um, and I think whatever is happening right there, clearly there is a care and understanding that people feel like Jose Fernandez has for them. So I feel pretty good about this. 7:13 I mean, when you look at some of the shortcomings of, of all the other teams that are out there, I think we gotta see what goes on with Minnesota. 7:20 But I mean, Dallas has played some of the top teams in the league so far, and they've comported themselves pretty well. So I feel pretty good about where we're moving when it comes to- Mm-hmm... the Dallas Wings. Mm-hmm. 7:32 Shout out to Kurt Miller, man. Like, Kurt, Kurt takes a lot of crap as a GM and has for the last couple years. He built a pretty good roster here, and I think that- Yeah... does deserve a measure of credit. Yeah. 7:42 Um, number two in the overreactions, [laughs] Nikki Ren, scouting god of Phoenix, Arizona. [laughs] Who wants a crack at that one? I've never seen somebody find so many 28-year-old rookies. 7:58 [laughs] But like, and do it well. Yeah. So he might need an award just off of that, 'cause we have, um, Monique, uh, uh, um- Akoom Makani... Akoom Makani. She was balling y- last year. 8:11 Then this year, like, my Aces got their face absolutely shot off by Nokic, and I'm like, "Who?" [laughs] Like, I, I don't know, man. He, if that's his formula, he's sticking to it and it's really, really good right now. 8:29 I mean, well, not right now, 'cause they suck. No, that's- But it's like they don't suck because of the scouting. That's, that's where I'm at with it, where it's like- Mm... 8:38 the overreaction in the sense of this being a, a scouting, like this guy is cooking with the scouting, I, that's correct. Was it good for the team overall? No. 8:49 This was not the strategy that should've been taken for this team in particular- Really?... when you're trying to build around... Yes. Around these two stars. 8:56 It's very different for me when you're building around two stars in Alyssa Thomas and, and Kahleah Copper versus three stars when you add Satou Sabally around that and you're kinda filling in the gaps. 9:05 You got, Satou was one of the highest usage players across the entire WNBA and you replaced her with 28-year-olds that hadn't played. 9:12 Yeah, but no, but, so what I'm saying is why are we not challenging the stars to step up? 'Cause like they're not- Oh, don't worry. That's fine by me. Don't worry. [laughs] Yeah, so that, that's what I'm saying. 9:21 Don't worry. Yeah, no, that's- Like, why are we like... They're just girls. Why are we blaming the 28-year-old rookies? That's true. [laughs] They're just the girls. It's only their third day out here. Yeah. 9:28 Yeah, that's, no, that's, like, I, like I said, I'm okay with saying this take in the sense of the scouting department of Phoenix is, like, correct. 9:37 Like, this, like the scouting that they've been able to do, uh, the past two seasons has been r- like, has been res- in- insane. Like, uh, the, the amount of- Mm-hmm... 9:44 productivity they've found from players that were seemingly not really on anyone else's radar. Mm-hmm. Just this year it's, it's not what they needed in the sense of what was going to make them a good basketball team. 9:56 That has not happened because, because of the star players, whether you're lacking in star power, like losing Satou and not really, like, like filling that in the way you needed to, or- You got DeWanna Bonner... 10:08 the stars that you had... Okay. All right, Shawnie. Like [laughs] I, uh, w- look, look, look- No. No... she, look- No. No... I was told that the chemistry- No. I was told that she- No... 10:16 she's, uh, what, their all-time leading scorer? No. Like, they added a great piece, a future Hall of Famer. [laughs] Like, I don't understand why is she not... 10:27 You know, they have what they need between DeWanna Bonner, Alyssa Thomas, Kahleah Copper. Like, come on, man. I was told that- You're really, you're really playing to the cheap seats on Bonner there... hey, man. Wicked. 10:38 Look. That's wicked. That's wicked. I'll do it for clicks. I don't care. That's it. 10:45 [laughs] But yeah, no, so I, overall the take is correct in the scouting, but I just don't think it was the right strategy needed for, for this year and what we've, what we've seen so far. 10:55 I like, you know, the Ivana Nogic pick, the Valerian Ayayi, uh, Akok Makur Makur still looks good. Yeah, I, I think the question is what, what are you building with all of that scouting, right? And, 11:14 I, look, we talked about this last week on the pod. Um, we've talked about it a little week, a little bit in general, is just I am curious about is Alyssa Thomas, like the, the player that you want her to be? 11:28 I mean, look, you really wanna get crazy if you're Nikki Ren. I mean, why, why not just try and flip the band back together in Indiana? Who's to say? 11:38 An ATDB, you know, picks and more trade, 'cause Ishbia loves himself a star. Send him back to be with Steph White and get Cameron Clark in Phoenix. [laughs] No chance. [laughs] No chance in hell. 11:53 Matt Ishbia- That just made... Okay. [laughs] 'Cause I thought we were about... 11:58 And then I was about to do something for clicks, and then you did that, so I don't- He would, he would personally- That would truly be scouting god Nikki Ren... 12:04 he would personally walk from Phoenix to the, the WNBA headquarters- Barefoot... in New York barefoot to turn that trade in- [laughs]... immediately. Immediately. 12:16 Well, uh, when it turns into a three-way trade and they get Angel. Yeah, there we go. They wish. That's the way to put it together... let's really put it together. 12:22 Hey, the, the Mercury promote every player but their own.Well That's so valid Never mind. Never mind. [laughs] They just, yeah. They want more. At least try. Yeah. [laughs] At least try. Yeah. Try. 12:35 I, I, I can, I can deal with try. All right, number three on our overreactions for the early season. Um, the biggest thing, probably my most 12:52 aggressive early season take- Oh, no... did the Los Angeles Sparks blow it up for no reason? Oh, yeah. [laughs] Uh, well, I mean, let's- Oh, man... 13:03 let's dive into this 'cause- Oh, God, Andrew No, agree on, disagree on air. Let's do this. All right. Here, here we go. So four, four and five, right? 13:12 It has been, the last couple games have been tough because Kelsey Plum has been hurt dealing with an ankle injury. That loss to the Connecticut Sun is a really bad looking one, but again, no Kelsey Plum. 13:28 Four and three beforehand, before that was happening, they had beaten the Mercury, they had beaten the Aces. So Tyler, are you still married to 13:37 this was a blowup for no reason, and even with the injury and, you know, kind of adding onto it, it's just the, the whole thing's still bad? Y'all got an average age of like 34 and you can't beat the Connecticut Sun? 13:51 Okay, hold on a second. Let's make a better point and not say something like that. [laughs] Ageism. Like, I mean, I, what are we doing? 13:58 What are we do- like, obviously yes, this team is better with Kelsey Plum, and notably has been better since, uh, implementing Erica Wheeler kind of into that point guard position instead of Kelsey Plum when, when KP was healthy. 14:09 Um, so like there's been improvements. Like they have, they have made adjustments needed to be better than like what they were initially at the beginning of this season. Um, Kambrink has been more productive, right? 14:19 So like there, like there is things to be positive about about the LA Sparks. Does it lead to anything but a first round exit at best? If that. Yeah. 14:30 Like, like you know, like so again, like so I'm still at this point where, like congrats on an appearance if you make it. You know? Like it's not gonna be an arrival. 14:38 You know, this, this isn't the win now team that you just like... I mean, one, we haven't seen this work really at all in the WNBA, like when you kind of try and piece together super teams in this way. 14:49 Like even like think like New York, it took a year. Like and, and, and this is not the New York Liberty that, that won that WNBA championship, you know what I mean? Like this is, this is not what that team is. 14:59 And it's a little bit different 'cause it's been now a couple years where they built it. So it's not the, it's not a like for like comparison. 15:03 But in terms of microwaving championships, it doesn't really happen in the WNBA. You gotta stick it in the oven, and this team is not, [laughs] they did not preheat it correctly. Hold up, Mark. Hold up. Hold up. 15:14 Let them all marinate. You like that one? You like that one? Hey. Yeah. They did not preheat this, uh, i- in the way that they needed to. Hey. 15:20 Um, and so I am, a- again, I think there's reason to be positive about the direction of the Sparks. 15:26 Like if you are looking at this season in the, in the tunnel vision of like what can make this team the best version of this team, there have been improvements in that way. 15:34 Um, I'm just still, I'm not sold on, on the defense of it. I mean, they're, they, o- opposing teams are averaging 92 points per game on this team. 15:43 No other team across the WNBA has, is, is averaging, uh, 90 with their defensive, uh, points allowed. Like this team is, is easily the worst team defensively across the WNBA. They can score. 15:54 They can certainly score- Mm-hmm... you know, when KP's on the court. 15:56 Um, but this is maybe the most egregious version of we kind of like, we kind of like put Dallas in this box of like hey, they, you, they might score, you might score 100 on them, but they're gonna score 105. 16:06 Dallas has shored it up on the defensive side of the ball. It's the Sparks that are really this team of like you, you gotta, you, you're, you're gonna be able to score 90 on them. 16:15 They just might go score 95, you know, or whatever that looks like. So ultimately 16:20 I still think that I, I, it's a, it's a weird situation in this one in particular because the Rickea Jackson exit felt like it was kind of like it, it was, it was coming. 16:29 Like there, there, whatever was going on with between Rickea and the Sparks organization and the coaching staff, I just never, it never seemed to really work with Lynn Roberts with Rickea Jackson. Mm-hmm. 16:39 So it's hard for me to be like, "Why did they trade Rickea?" It's more about the trade they made for Rickea and thinking that Ariel Atkins is going to, you know, be like, oh this is, this is one of those pieces. 16:49 Ariel Atkins and Nneka Ogwumike in 2026, you're gonna win us a championship. That's just not, that's just not the case. 16:55 So I, I still think they blew it up too early even though I think that there are positive signs on what the win loss record might be for this season. Just so your New York comparison, I mean, they had the real Sob. 17:07 You had Sarah Ashley Marker. Hey, I know they're sick. Could've built around that. [laughs] I... They blew it. It, this is a team that allows the most points and has the worst defensive rating in the league. 17:21 You're not gonna win a lot of games like that. 17:23 No, you're asking, you're asking Nneka to, like it, it's, it's an interesting thing because I think Seattle, like this isn't a very, this isn't like a different Nneka Ogwumike truly to what we saw in Seattle in my eyes. 17:34 Like there's not like- Thank you... been this like drop off or anything. What you're seeing is Nneka Ogwumike being asked to highlight different parts of her game. 17:40 Where in Seattle, defensively Seattle was as stout as you, as you could get. Nneka was really their main source of offense and you allowed her to still be the Nneka Ogwumike on offense that she's able to be. 17:50 We're still getting that, but you're not seeing the defensive help surrounding her in the way that you needed before, and I think that that's exposed some things f- uh, within that where I don't think it's a difference in Nneka Ogwumike. 18:01 I think it's a difference in Seattle Storm defense versus Sparks defense from, from last year to this year. And, and it's like there's just some things there that 18:09 defensively, man, it, it's, it's hard to ignore and, and to believe in a team that gives up points in the way that they are currently. Yeah. I think that we have to have a conversation about no more unctions. 18:20 Uh, word to Alexis Morris 'cause like the- You know-... to me the Sparks kind of went from they was like, "Hmm-"That unction over there looks kinda fun. Nneka, come help us start one. And it's like- Yep... what? 18:33 As soon as they lost the Paige lottery, this is, it, they, they never really believed in the rebuild. And- Yeah... and this is where you've ended up now. So now you don't- Yeah... 18:42 have, you have all of this experience, all of this championship experience on the team, and it is amounting to nothing. 'Cause I'm still just like, yeah, you beat the Aces, but, like, 18:52 beating the Aces in May doesn't count. No, seriously. I- You know everybody beats the Aces. Like [laughs] Phoenix beat them by 80 the first game of the season. And like, we're Phoenix's right now. 19:01 Like that doesn't count. Winning against the Aces in May does not count. Maybe, maybe when you, maybe when you beat the Aces you go bad. That's like the whole concept here. It, it, it kinda feels like it, yeah. 19:09 [laughs] You know? They, they throw your juju out. It's just, yeah, there's just- You won at what cost? Really. 19:14 There's just not, um, there's a lot of, uh, of meat on the bone here, and I think the thing that I am not super st- psyched about is- Brittney Sykes? We're still not getting the Kam Brink that I want us to get. Mm-hmm. 19:30 And we getting the Stanford attitude. We're just [laughs] not getting that production. Hey, she was talking cash the last, like, three or four games. No she wasn't. She was plugging her ears. 19:37 [laughs] When they hit, she hit Jackie Young with the la, la, la, la, la. La, la, la, la. Go away. That was amazing. [laughs] I loved that, honestly. I, I thought, I was... 19:46 I came away, um, I came away like, "Oh, okay," like she's still got a little bit of Kam Brink in there, but it's just- Mm-hmm... yeah, the, the success, um, 19:56 with these types of rebuilds is that you're supposed to get it going immediately. 19:59 And the thing that bothers me is, you know, Kelsey Plum even at the beginning of the year saying, "Hey, you know, it's gonna take a little while to do this." 20:06 Like, to your point, Tyler, okay, well, if it's gonna take a couple years to do this, why don't you just do it with younger players on cheaper contracts? [laughs] And you could've, you could've been a millionaire, KP. 20:16 Like, what do... [laughs] Like- Don't even get me started on- Yeah... the stupidity of that. I hate that urban legend. It needs to die, and whoever... 20:25 I know that that's probably her just, like, trolling 'cause she has to know tax law better than that, but if you don't know tax law better than that, like, dude, who's in your corner? That's crazy. Yeah. 20:34 Anyway, overreaction number four at the time: Golden State has a vision and it's working. 20:40 And the argument was effectively whatever we can say, uh, about how the Golden State front office handles the interpersonal side of this business, um, and how they sort of move with either people that they draft or people that they select or people that they cut, 20:56 I mean, there's really, you know, kind of feels, I, it, it- the N- the, the Becky Hammon is strong in Natalie Nakase, you know? 21:04 'Cause I feel like that was kind of some of the Aces issue for a long time has been players leave the Aces and sometimes feel like, oh, was it really power of friendship? 21:15 You know, like, are they kind of moving in a way that, you know, uh, minimizes players or makes you feel like it's not really the family that you thought it was, it's much more business-like when push comes to shove. 21:27 I mean, Golden State can have that element too, but whatever Golden State is doing, whatever they're building, it's working. It's a good team, and they're sitting here in the top three for the league so far. 21:39 So, I feel pretty good about it. What do y'all think? 21:42 I think we have to assess what the goal is, 'cause to your point, and this is just gonna bug me, um, there, the power of friendship is strong as long as Kirsten Hambel is still on my team. 21:53 Like, that's, that's always gonna be it. So maybe if you're a rookie that got cut for KB, like, yeah. [laughs] The power of friendship did not work for you. But sorry. Yeah. 22:03 Um, to your point with the Valkyries, it's like what is, what's the goal here? What's the vision, you know, five years down the road? 'Cause are we still trying to get, like, a Juju Watkins or a Sarah Strong? 22:12 'Cause, like, now you're a little too good for that. Are we trying to win a championship? 'Cause now you're not really good enough for that. 22:20 So it's like if your goal is to have the best atmosphere in the W, um, mission accomplished. 22:27 If your goal is to put an entertaining product on it and get, you know, everybody's like, "Oh, this scrappy team with no, you know, big names coming together and doing it," cool. Yeah. 22:38 If your goal is to make the playoffs, you're accomplishing that. 22:41 So it's like if the goal is to just kind of exist for a few years, I guess maybe until you figure yourselves out or get a big star or something like that, or if you find somebody that fits well with what y'all got going on, then yeah. 22:56 But if the goal is tank for Juju [laughs] or, like, make, win a championship, you're kind of in this weird no man's land. So that's, I don't know, man. I do like the honesty from the GM. 23:09 I'm never gonna not rock with that quote- [laughs]... about being exhausted, 'cause who among us is not? Yeah. It's, it's, for me, as, as bad as the draft has been handled over the past couple years- Mm-hmm... and, and 23:23 in pretty much about every way you could possibly [laughs] imagine. Um, specifically this year more so, uh, ultimately Golden State had a vision. 23:31 A- and when Natalie Nakase showed up to Golden State and was announced as the head coach that I... The idea of defense and three-pointers being the, the foundation of this franchise was a day one thing. 23:43 Like this is what going into it, like there was a, an alignment across this entire organization that this is how they were gonna play basketball. 23:49 And I was critical of Golden State this off-season in the sense of I was, I was hoping that they would get involved with like, and find their 1A, right? 23:56 A- and to find like that superstar, because Shawnie, to your point, I think it's gonna have to come in free agency at this point. 24:02 I don't think you're going, you're not drafting your, your superstar, uh, in terms of like, "Oh, we are getting the bonafide superstar. We're getting Juju, we're getting Sarah Strong." 24:09 You know, like whatever that looks like. That's not happening now with Golden State. Like you, frankly, you kinda ruined that in year one by being too good to begin with, so like you're- Can't come to cross... 24:18 you're, yeah, literally, you know? So now you go and get Gabby Williams, who isFrankly, uh, her three-point shooting so far, because you know the defense you're getting with Gabby Williams. That was always- Mm-hmm... 24:27 going to fit. The question was, could she be the 1A scorer? I don't think that we're getting that. I don't think that we're gonna get Gabby Williams the 1A scorer. 24:34 But what we're getting right now, and I have the stat pulled up here, she's averaging 5.4 threes per game at 39% right now. And keep in mind- Yeah... 24:42 she's never shot more than 3.7 threes per game and has never shot more than 32%. So, like, whether this is, you know, s- viable for the entire season or what that looks like- Mm-hmm... we'll have to see. 24:54 But ultimately, you're getting-- You've got a star player that does exactly what you want to do as a team at arguably the highest level. 25:01 If you've got Gabby Williams' defense at nearly 40% shooting at that volume, I don't know how many players you're, you're asking to come and join your system that fits it better and does it at a higher level. 25:11 So, it-- with that in mind, I mean, they're, they're averaging the most attempts from three per game, and they're at-- they're shooting almost 40% as a team. The, the turnovers are low for Golden State. 25:19 They're one of the lowest teams that turn the ball over. Like, everything that you want in terms of what they want to do strategically as a franchise, they're doing it. 25:28 Once, once, like, Nafessa Collier comes back for Minnesota, and like, we obviously know what Minnesota's doing, uh, and, and like, if, if Vegas, you know, gets kind of fully up to speed, if New York gets fully up to speed, if Indiana gets fully up to speed, do we see the issues of not having that 1A scorer, I think is, like, my biggest question mark still. 25:45 But ultimately right now, as a team that has a vision, no one's executing it clearer right now than what Golden State's doing. Will it be enough to win a championship? That's what hindsight will tell us. 25:54 But right now, in this moment, no one's doing what they aim to do better than what Golden State is doing right now. I would agree. I think the question is, to your point, is Gabby Williams the 1A? 26:03 Which I think was what we argued a month ago when we- Mm-hmm... did this, is, is she that player? And so far, I think we've seen she can be. Um, w- we need more of Kayla Thornton, who's finally back and, and- Mm-hmm... 26:15 in the lineup a bit more. The question that I have going forward is, what do you do with, uh, Ustja Josete, who has appeared to be... 26:23 You know, they're slow-playing her into the rotation, but that pick looks good, actually. Mm-hmm. And maybe that, in the future, is the 1A, you know? 26:32 I mean, it would be pretty, it would be pretty remarkable GM-ing and development if- Yeah... 26:37 you pull a, a 19-year-old draft stash who, you know, was kind of, like, the really deep ball knower's pick of someone that could be good. 26:47 But I don't know if anybody would've seen her as a potential 1A down the road for a team- Mm-hmm... that could contend for a championship. But, like, 26:54 I mean, it usually takes two to three years to catch on in this league anyway. So it's entirely possible that maybe the star is hiding in plain sight. 27:04 We just haven't really seen her yet because, for all intents and purposes, she's the age of a college sophomore. We, we also need to ha- probably have that same dialogue about Salon as well, coming off the bench- Yeah... 27:13 and how great she's been, like, in terms of, like, the 1A. Like I said, like, I mean, Veronica Burton has games where she can go for 20-plus, like Janelle Salon. 27:19 Like, we've seen it with 20 plu- Like, so there's players here that can go and be your 1A on a given night. Uh, it, I think it just gets to a point where I do get curious about, like, late game situations. 27:29 Good God, we need a bucket, where do we go? Like, right now, I think it's Salon or Burton. Like, and, and, like, Burton getting to the rim- Mm-hmm... or Salon, like, I mean, shooting over people. She's hitting fadeaways. 27:38 She's been great. Um, so I'm, I, I'm still interested in what that looks like. 27:42 But ultimately, again, I mean, what-- The, the vision that they've executed, even if it wasn't the one maybe, like, I anticipated, like, going into this free agency of, like, "Oh, we want to try and sign, you know, like, a, an Nafessa Collier type of player," whatever that looks like, um, ultimately, the, the vision that they had is, is working at a super high degree right now. 28:01 Yeah. All right, guys. Final one, the big one. Is the 2024 draft class actually developing? Uh, y'all, uh, I think it might be dialogue time. Oh, please. I really do. 28:19 I mean, I think, I think the person that is probably developing the most right now is how much Carl Smesko in Atlanta seems to be legitimately, maniacally, single-mindedly focused on getting Angel Reese to put the ball up here- Mm-hmm... 28:34 when she has it in the paint. But outside of that, I mean, dog- I don't think that's-... Caitlin Clark's having the same problems. Cam Brink is having the same problems. Hey, hold on. 28:43 Kate Martineau is having the same problems. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. 'Cause they was getting on you about this earlier. I saw them comments. You don't see them mid-ranges? I know you see them mid-ranges. 28:53 We was talking about her- I see the, I see the mid-ranges better. You, but you... Come on. You s- She went from not taking any- You still don't see the turnover problems. You still don't see the bad passes. No. 29:01 Like, this is not... Like, look, I- Hold on, because I still... No, no, no. 'Cause, so we gotta talk about what is going to be just a byproduct of what's going on. 29:09 'Cause if you're playing at a fast pace, again, you're talking to a Russell Westbrook fan. So if we're playing at a fast pace and we're trying to, like, get out in transition, that's just gonna be a byproduct of it. 29:19 My thing was the turnovers where she's caught falling asleep and getting her pocket picked. Those are the ones that concern me, and I'm not seeing that as much. 29:29 So to me, a bad pass in transition is not the same as you just standing around and somebody snatching it from you. 29:35 So I think, like, Golden State is a terrible matchup for her 'cause they have, like, figured out a way to kinda do that. But, like, we're talking about her like she is Anthony Bennett, and just, like- No... 29:50 not- No, no, no, no, no. No, no, no, no, no, no. No, not us. Oh, good God. Like, us. 29:53 I'm saying, I'm saying, I'm saying, like, in general, she's being discussed like she is, like, on her way out the league, and she's still putting up 24- Yes... and 8. Yes. So to me, 30:06 there's no way that you can come in, like, unless we're saying that she came in at such a level to where when she's not even playing well or she's regressing and not developing, she's still putting up all WNBA numbers, then we gotta have- Yeah... 30:20 another conversation. And I'm saying we wanna have that conversation. That is, that is objectively, yes. That is objectively the conversation I'm having about her. Her- She's-... 30:26 and nobody else, because her, she comes in the league as a first-team, all WNBA caliber playerSo the, the grading curve for her is different than someone like Camila Cardoso, who is still like a, a, a cone defensively in certain respects. 30:40 But like, if you're Caitlin Clark, and we did bestow a certain amount of you are gonna be great here, I know that there's coaching problems, I know that players need to have the ability to have bad games here and there. 30:55 But I think for me at least, me, not speaking for anybody else, but for me, I am looking at your development differently. 31:04 And how the, how you develop along the margins is what informs me about what your development curve looks like generally. Whereas I think some of the other players, you know... 31:15 Look, we can, we can have some discussions about Cam Brink at this point, man. Like, we're 50 games into career. And we need to. Yeah. Like, there's a sample. I feel like 31:26 Cam Brink not developing into somebody that can't defend without fouling, that is a hindrance, right? 31:33 So if Caitlin was like, the turnovers were getting worse and we're seeing more in transition or out of transition to where it's like now a detriment to the team in that way, then that's when we start having those type of discussions. 31:47 But I don't think it's hindering it as mu-... That to me is an overblown point because everybody's averaging turnovers, multiple turnovers. Mm-hmm. And like nobody gets that put on the Summer Jam screen. 31:59 Like, I'm watching like Alyssa Thomas and Kelsey Gray, Chelsea Gray, excuse me, and I'll... You know, I'm seeing six turnover games and it's just like, oh, well, they've done X, Y, Z, so it's okay. 32:09 Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But I'm kind of like, sometimes turnovers just happen. 32:14 The fouls, that's like you gotta t- clean that up 'cause it's like you cannot be an asset to the team if you're not on the floor. So Cam, you know, we're trying to give her this grace 'cause she hasn't played in a while. 32:28 But like, that's, that's you. That's on you, Andrew. Mm-hmm. You must defend your Pac-12 daughter. [laughs] I, I can... Uh, well, this one's been tough. I can't lie. [laughs] This one's been hard. 32:41 'Cause I, 'cause I've always been a big fan of Cam Brink. It's just when you look at the 2024- Can't pose about it... 32:46 draft class, all right, we have Caitlin Clark, who I, I, I genuinely think maybe we need to take her out of these discussions the more we talk about it, because I, again- Mm-hmm... 32:54 I think her development curve is different than everybody else's in that way. 32:59 But Cam Brink, Camila Cardoso, Rickea Jackson, who gets it off 'cause she's injured, Jaycee Sheldon, Aaliyah Edwards, Angel Reese, Alyssa Pealy, Carla Leite, Leila Licon, Marquesha Davis, Nadia Puak, Nika Muhl, Celeste Taylor, Deja Fair, Kate Martin, Izzy Borlase, Jess Carter, Liz Kitley, Charisma Osborne, Mackenzie Holmes. 33:18 Those are the draft picks that have actually played in this league. Out of all of those players, two, I would argue, have legitimately developed, and they're the two French players. Yep. Carla Leite and Leila Licon. Yep. 33:29 But everybody else, how much different, Tyler, do you think Camila Cardoso is now from her rookie year, other than the fact that she just is getting the ability to run more pick and roll? 33:40 Like, Aaliyah Edwards has not gotten better. Alyssa Pealy is not in the league. Like, Marquesha Davis, um, not in the league. Puak is a, uh- Uh, Jaycee Sheldon... rotational player. 33:49 But bring Jaycee, bring Jaycee Sheldon here, 'cause why was she so high? [laughs] I feel like Jaycee Sheldon gets- Yes. And then why did they trade a first-round pick for her? 33:56 I can- Bro, [laughs] like Jaycee Sheldon is on this tear in the league and nobody- [laughs]... is really like discussing like, whoa, what is going on here? Yeah. No- Yeah... 34:06 for, for me it, it's, I, I, I think you're spot on with it. I think there's certainly like, there, there's different curves for different players, as you mentioned. 34:13 Like, like the, like Caitlin's standard is different than, you know, like I mean just across the board. 34:18 Like, you could go an- I think each individual player, if you graded them on their own curve of where they are, I think it's fair to say that there's like, there's been a, a lack of development across, you know, this, this entire draft class. 34:31 I, I think you're, you've seen flashes of things at times. Like you see Angel hitting the, the corner three, like just this past game, right? For, to, to be able to get her like 1,000th career point. 34:40 Like, you saw that and was like, "Oh, okay." Like, if this happens regularly- Mm-hmm... that's great, you know? Like, so there's moments where like I see flashes of different things. 34:48 Um, but ultimately, like you are largely seeing the same players that came into the WNBA. 34:54 And these are players that, uh, largely, you know, I, I'd say generally speaking, like had impact pretty, pretty immediately, especially given in comparison to a lot of draft classes a- across the WNBA. 35:04 And, um, uh, probably at a, at a, a more immediate depth of impact as well, I'd add to that, in terms of, again, just how they came into the league when you're looking at the first round across the board. Um- Mm-hmm... 35:14 but ultimately not, not much has changed about what, the way that we discuss these players and what the good is, what the bad is, a- and what that looks like. 35:24 It's, it's all relatively the same from, from the day that they stepped on. Certainly maybe different roles have changed or what that looks like. 35:31 Teams have changed and, and where, where they play, what the roster surrounding them are. Um, so like there's those, those factors to it. 35:38 But ultimately, in terms of like the individual player and what you're seeing, I think it's largely pretty... 35:45 It, it's been pretty stable, um, to a detriment, I'd say, in terms of the development of most of these players across this draft class. Yeah. Hot take. They need to improve. 35:55 When you come into the league and you already those girls, not Jaycee Sheldon, but when you come into the league and you already that girl- You can't say that for anyone but Caitlin- No... 36:03 and I'd say the way Angel came in with, with like the double doubles and everything. Those two French players, I mean, you know, they did they thing. 36:09 But when you that girl, when you those girls, and you're still breaking records in year three, both Caitlin and Angel- Mm... they holding the class down. They got 'em on their back. Cam Brink- They are... 36:18 pull your weight. So I think like the, the four year s- the, the four-year jump is to me a very, um, a very real thing in the WNBA. Mm-hmm. Like, you've seen it especially at the guard spot. 36:32 Like, year four is usually when players jump and, and prove that they are something. 36:36 But when you go look at something like the 2022 draft class, right?Ryan Howard, NaLyssa Smith, Shakira Austin, Emily Engstler, Nyarah Sabaly, Lexi Hull, Veronica Burton, Maya Hollingshed, um, Rae Burrell, Queen Egbo, Kirsten Bell, Nia Clouden. 36:50 And then in the second round, um, Naz Hillmon, Olivia Nelson-Odota are in there, um, and then Jade Melbourne in the third, uh, in the very end of the third round there. 37:01 I would make the argument that pretty much all of those players have either... Uh, no one I think has regressed. I think more, more first rounders than not have improved since '22. Mm-hmm. 37:15 I think, look, when you look at- Including Lexi Hull... what Shakira Austin was- And I'm being serious... when she came into the league, she's a, she's a lot different. I think Engstler is better. 37:23 I think Nyarah Sabaly is, uh, way better than what we thought she would be. Lexi Hull was... 37:27 People, fans on Twitter were literally calling for Lexi Hull to be cut to the point that her mom had to get on Twitter and be like, "Stop being so mean to my kid." Mm-hmm. Um, Veronica Burton- That has not changed. 37:37 [laughs] Well, it did last year at the very least. Yeah. Yeah. 'Cause she's besties with some Comets players. 37:42 I- You know, you could make the argument that Lexi Hull, you could, you could make the argument she regressed this year, but in order to regress, you have to progress. She was improved. 37:50 No, she was- Um- No, last year she was better. Yes. Mm. Yeah. Veronica Burton, Veronica Burton obviously has- Oh, yes... made a big, big jump. Yeah. Um, Naz Hillmon is a v- very- Naz Hillmon... 38:00 important rotational piece for Atlanta. Yeah. And I am still in that, uh, Olivia Nelson-Odota might be a player that you would really want on your team, whether it's the future Houston Comets or somebody else. 38:10 Jade Melbourne is, um, uh, at least in my opinion, a streaky if not rotationally viable guard that exists in the league. 38:17 So, you know, you look at, you look at that draft class, there is an argument for players that have improved over that time. 38:24 2023, um, Aliyah Boston is not even remotely close to the same player that she was, and I think that's- Mm... 38:30 she to me, Shawnie, is the, is the type of player where you're like, what you were already getting was a player that was that good- Right... and she's taken that a step further, right? 38:41 Um, but you look at another, another one of your Gamecocks, like Laeticia Amihere, right? What, what has happened in Golden State these last two years? She's, she's become a legit player. 38:50 Dorka Juhasz was a second-round player. She has found, um, you know, even injury aside, she's found a home in Minnesota as somebody that can grow into something. Jordan Horston was the same. 39:01 Pre-injury, she was one of the more premier lockdown guards in the, in the WNBA, uh, for Seattle. So, I think the reason I look at 2024 this way, and there's still plenty of time to grow and develop. Mm. 39:13 Not saying that, like, this is who they are now, but I do think when we talk about how transcendent and how potentially deep this class was in 2024, thinking, wow, you got a player like Angel Reese at seven, and you can make an argument that, wow, Cam Brink at two, and Cardoso at three, and Rickea at four, and Angel at seven, and Caitlin Clark at one, those are potentially five franchise cornerstone players. 39:37 And right now we see two. And that I think- I think-... is the difference. But I think, like, the difference is opportunity, right? 'Cause, like, when you bring up Laeticia Amihere, she was in hell in Atlanta. 39:50 [laughs] Like- For sure... Tanisha Wright was like, "No. Stop asking me. I'm not playing her." 39:55 So it's like a lot of those players got on to teams now where they're allowed to play more minutes and they're allowed to show. So is it more development or is it more opportunity to show who they already were? 40:07 I think the 2024 draft class came in and they already had their minutes on lock, except Jaycee Sheldon. 40:13 Well, even still, but, like, they had their minutes on lock, so it's like we're kinda seeing them empty the clip early, so it makes it a little bit... Like, you get to see all of their flaws and everything too- Mm-hmm... 40:26 but it's just like the development is going to look a little different for a player that wasn't playing and is now playing versus a player that, you know, was drafted to be a rotational piece. 40:35 Like, you have to develop or you are out of the league. 40:39 Them, I'm not saying they don't have to develop, but I'm saying, like, their skill set that they were drafted to be in order to be that franchise player is so strong that, like, yeah, maybe we can take our time adding some of these other pieces to our game. 40:53 So that's why I'm saying, like, I, I, I just think, like... I, I think it's just a different situation for other draft classes, uh, and it's just, it, it was a more of a need for them to develop because, like, the league 41:07 roster spots were so scarce. Some of them coming in were not, like, guaranteed any of those roster spots, so it's like you, you gotta do more. And then the teams they were originally drafted to, it wasn't the best fit. 41:20 So I just... And which is interesting given the conversation today, 'cause we're wondering now if everybody's team in 2024 is the best fit. But- Well-... they've at least got to show some stuff. 41:32 I do think that, I mean, I think you make a good argument that, like, the teams at the top of the lottery in '24 versus '25 are just very different in how they move and operate, but I'd make the argument right now the 2025 class on the whole looks better than '24's. 41:45 '25. Hold up. Paige, Dominique Malonga, Citron, Kiki, Yasate, Amor, who's struggling, Moro, Saniya River, Sarah Ashley Barker, uh, Ziya James, Leianai, Olakosu, uh, Anastacia Olakosu, Pau Pau Timpson. 42:03 Um, let's see, Lucy Olsen, JJ Quinerly, Caitlin Chen. Like that, there's a lot more meat on the bone in that draft class. Yeah, I, I just stopped at 2025 right now. Uh, yeah, it's clearing, yeah. From top to bottom. 42:15 They're clearing. So, like, when you- From top to bottom, they're clearing them. 42:17 But I think, but I think even, you know, and maybe again, and to your point, it's fit, but, like, there's players in here that are making year two jumps that some players in that '24 class I don't think have made that jump in year two or three so far. 42:31 I think that's maybe the, the thing that I'm kind of- But what were the results, though? What were the results of the season of not making that jump? 'Cause again- Yeah... 42:39 like, if I'm still breaking ev- records that have been here for, like, you know, since the inception of the W in year twoAnd I haven't improved per se, like [inhales] you might- Yeah... 42:52 have to improve 'cause you just not that girl yet. I'm sorry. [laughs] I, I mean, I don't disagree. I, I, like I said, I think that that's just a different, um, I just think for Caitlin in particular it's just different. 43:03 And like, look, I know fans are- Oh, I'm not even talking about Caitlin. I'm talking about like Angel for like, for all her faults, for her to be averaging the double double 43:13 and like doing what she's doing in Atlanta with all of her f- you know, fl- because the defense is still the defense. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And then I saw like even in Chicago, like she was giving Asia problems defensively. 43:23 She was giving Feed problems defensively. So I'm saying like flaws and all, 43:28 we do nitpick because they do have, um, a bigger following, a higher magnitude of, you know, critique coming their way just off the sheer strength of the spotlight on them. Mm-hmm. 43:40 But if you still breaking records year two that have been uphill for 20 some odd years and you haven't developed yet, like [sighs] hey man. Hey man, look. Yeah. 'Cause a rebound is effort. Defense is a effort thing. 43:57 Like it ain't like there's no l- it's like, you know, you break a free throw record, that's getting sent to the line, right? So that, you know, you depending on the ref or something, I don't know. 44:07 But like what I'm saying is they out there making it happen and making strides that like the other class you weren't even at where I started at. 44:17 So yeah, you gotta develop and yeah, you can develop more and have more progress 'cause you weren't even here to begin with. But have they caught up to 24, like that top end that we're talking about? I don't... 44:30 I would say no. Mm-hmm. It's, it's a fair question. I'm really interested in where we go. Tyler- Ooh, we'll argue about that next time. [laughs] Oh no, I was gonna say w- wait till we do the two month. 44:42 We'll do the half season- Yeah. [laughs]... overreaction reaction and see where we're at. Tyler, any, uh, final thoughts on your end before we wrap this sucker up? 44:50 Nah, just, uh, we, we got a new, new thing coming your way from our Ball Knowers. Yes. Drop the hotline. Um, so we have a no cap space hotline available to our Ball Knowers. 44:59 So if you join the Discord, you get access to the hotline. So the way this is gonna work, at least in, in, in current practice, you know, we'll, we'll see how it develops and everything, but the idea is questions. 45:11 That's, you know, topic questions, hot takes, ethical hate, maybe even a positive review, you know, of, of the show. You could just be nice too. You know, and you get- [laughs]... 45:20 a chance to be featured, uh, on a podcast if you leave a review or a Fan Fridays. The, the goal is to make every Friday essentially a radio call-in show. 45:29 You leave your voicemail, you leave your name, you leave your take, and then we'll choose a couple every Friday and, and dive into those. 45:35 So if you're a Ball Knower, whether a YouTube member or if you become a Ball Knower and, and get the additional content on the newsletter at nocapspacewe.com, you can get access to the Discord, which gives you access to call into the hotline. 45:47 So whether it's this week or, or next, we'll, we'll see about when we start it just in terms of, you know, just how, how it all works out. 45:53 But, uh, be on the lookout for that, and if it has something that interests you, become a Ball Knower. 45:58 Not only do you get that, but you get access to like the best community to talk ball with across the entire women's basketball world with the Ball Knowers. 46:05 So, uh, plenty of reasons to tap in with us and, and become a, a paid subscriber. I do love it when- I already left a review. I called the hotline guys Yeah. Yes. I, I did... it's fun. 46:14 She said, "Is this an Oklahoma number? What the hell? Am I calling Aaliyah Chavez?" And I hung up. [laughs] Toss it immediately. That's honestly, that, that's a soundboard. 46:26 I think that, I think that's our hotline soundboard. Am I calling Aaliyah Chavez? Am I calling Aaliyah Chavez? It's the No Cap Space hotline. Yeah, no, it's... 46:32 No, I left a, I l- I did the little radio voice like for like the, "You've reached the No Cap Space hotline." [laughs] I, I, I gotta do like a used car salesman commercial or something. 46:41 Like, I, I don't- Oh, we need one of those... 46:42 like I, we'll, we'll have to figure it out, but I think it's gonna be a, I, I think it's gonna be a fun new addition to the content, uh, calendar if you will, for, for us here at NCS. 46:51 Feet are getting under us here at No Cap Space. A month into the year and we're really starting to percolate. 46:56 Shawnie's gonna be on hand for the Mystics and Dream game over this weekend, and we are gonna have plenty of previews of tonight's games of the, uh, Fever and Dream, Caitlin versus Angel, first time this year, plus Lynx-Valkyries. 47:10 That'll be recapped tomorrow as well. We got a whole lot coming. So stay with us, man. No Cap Space is just heating up as we get into the real meat of the season. She's Shawnie, he's Tyler, I'm Andrew. 47:20 This has been Ball Up Top, a women's basketball podcast which you can find anywhere on YouTube, on Apple, on Spotify. Wherever you get it, we got it. Make sure to leave us a five star review. 47:29 Say something nice, share it with your friends. Right. Spread the good word and the that of ball knowledge. We'll see y'all very soon
