Transcript 0:00 [upbeat music] Hello, hello, and welcome ladies and gentlemen to Ball Up Top, a women's basketball podcast provided by No Cap Space. 0:24 Andrew, Shawnie, and a special guest. [imitates gun] You wanna do the clue bomb, Shawnie, or do you want me to do it? [imitates gun] [imitates gun] The winner, WNBA show host, Ted Ts'aoi. 0:40 [laughs] Thank you so much for joining us. It, it's been a long time coming having you on Ball Up Top. Welcome. Thank you. I'm so excited. Uh, yeah, we've done... We... You guys have, uh... 0:52 I've had Tyler on, I've had Shawnie on, I'm having you on tomorrow, spoiler alert, a little teaser. What? What's the teaser? A little teaser for the people. Oh, so- A little home and home action... 0:59 there's just been some plotting behind my back. Okay Yeah, you got... Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're, yeah, you're on the bench. You're on the bench for now. [laughs] Yeah. 1:06 I fi- I finally got pulled up with, you know, my, my massive 262 person following on Blue Sky currently. You know, you, you just, those are analytics that you just- Yeah. [laughs]... 1:17 you can't pass up when the opportunity [laughs] comes into- Mm-mm. No, I actually, I was trying to... I was working my way up. Like, I figured- [laughs]... I'd have Shawnie and Tyler on, and that you would notice me. 1:27 I was the one. [laughs] Yeah. Okay, Shawnie. I actually should have Shawnie on. I should just, I should just be talking to you about South Carolina, making you just, like- Ha... 1:36 drag your heels onto the podcast like Charlie Bla- Brown, like, you know. Oh. Yeah. That's- Do you want, do you want... A- Andrew, I'm sorry to do this right now. No, no, do it. Do you want it? Take this job. 1:45 I love this. Is that what you want? I'm just a little shocked- Is that what you want, Shawnie?... 'cause I don't really feel like I deserve this. Like, there's really nothing I've ever done to deserve- Mm... 1:55 this type of energy. I'm- I'm, I'm baffled as to how this has come- Mm-hmm... to my doorstep, truly. Yeah. Not understanding. Why, why do good, why do bad things happen to good people, Shawnie asks- Yeah... 2:06 after investigating her tweets from the last six months. [laughs] You're responsible for this. Yeah. It's like the Eric Andre meme. [laughs] [laughs] Well, well, well, if it isn't the consequences of my own actions. 2:19 Me reaping versus me sowing. [laughs] Oh, shit. Just fucking so stuck. [laughs] Take it. Well- Stick out of my bicycle spokes. [laughs] I'm thinking... 2:33 See, this is where I need Tyler, who by the way is, is out with a coffee, had his Jordan Flew game with the Ariel Atkins trade to the Chicago Sky, which we will talk about. It's on our YouTube. You can check it out. 2:45 We only felt it right to give him a night off. But honestly, I'm flailing, guys, because I was like, "How am I going to do a home field read and segue out of that gracefully?" This is as, about as good as I can do. 2:59 So folks, of course, as always, we are presented by Home Field. It's tournament time. They got great gear, something you should buy. Rep your favorite team. Use No Cap 15 to get your first Home Field purchase 15% off. 3:12 And of course, subscribe to our Substack as well, No Cap Space. 3:17 We got the paid Ball No Words tier, and you'll get things like what we're about to talk about, guys, because Jeff Pagliocca and the Chicago Sky are at it again in the white vans. 3:28 I don't know if I love or hate this trade that sends the third pick in the 2025 WNBA draft over to the Washington Mystics, a pick swap for first rounders in 2027 in exchange for Ariel Atkins. 3:44 Shawnie, just because I feel like I've, I haven't heard you on the show in a while, love this, hate this, and maybe you can say love in a hateful way if you do love it. Not my show. Like, not my team. 3:57 I don't care what they do. [laughs] Like, dude, like, from a technical standpoint, I don't hate it. You know, you got a bunch of vets surrounding them. You have people... 4:07 I've seen people kind of breaking down the stats like, "Oh, they don't score a lot," or, "They don't do this, and they don't do that." And I'm kinda like, 4:13 that might be better for Angel and Camilla's development, especially, like, if they're both playing in their respective leagues right now. You have Camilla developing overseas. You have Angel developing within Unrivaled. 4:24 They come back with a different skill set. You don't want people coming in to, like, dominate the ball. You want people to come in and be the safety valve, people to come in to get... 4:33 take the pressure off of them, people to come in and give entry passes. Like, you don't want people to come in and, like, think it's their show and, you know, wanna dominate. 4:42 And you also, with that third pick, right, you could get a great pick, but it would still take a second to get the pick acclimated to the W. 4:52 So it's like, you don't know who that third person is, that third pick is going to turn into when it manifests itself as a human. 4:58 Like, I'm a Thunder fan, so at some point the pick's gotta turn into people, and sometimes it's better theoretically than it is in actuality. I was working out for the Thunder. [laughs] I just said. 5:09 [laughs] Yeah, like- Yeah. Yeah, it's like- Yeah. But I mean, like, we lost Russell Westbrook, so [sighs] you know. Some wounds that just never heal. Yeah, which is why you're in the position that you're in today. Okay. 5:21 Not to turn this into an NBA podcast. No, okay, fine. 'Cause it's one thing to talk about the Cox, but when you come talking about Russell Westbrook, like now we gotta... 5:29 I'm gonna have to edit that out 'cause that's, that's, that's household stuff. How does it feel that a Canadian is the best point guard in Oklahoma City Thunder history? How does that feel? He's the best small forward. 5:40 What are you talking about? In Thunder history. [laughs] Like, that's his natural position, and he is the best at it, so I don't know what you're talking about. [laughs] But oh, Canada. 5:52 Hey, it's been a good week for Canada. Yeah, no, it's been good. I was gonna say, a solid, solid week for Canada. Yeah. You guys lo- honestly- Canada. Yeah, we did... one fight, won the hockey game. 6:02 Mm-hmmCassandra Prosper getting some good Notre Dame minutes. Nice. You know? Yep. Mm-hmm. Uh, like the, the shadow freshman of the year campaign for Silas Swords, like in- Mm... in full effect in certain corners. Yes. 6:15 Mm-hmm. Man, that Canada's kinda coming up, uh, coming up positive right now. Mm-hmm. Hey, real quick- Cassandra, what do you think? Are we, are we loving or hating Chicago's off season right now? 6:25 C- you know, love and hate exist in a very similar part of the brain according to Tumblr, so I'm kind of... That, that's kinda where I'm at. 6:33 Like, I can see this from every possible side, and we texted about this a little bit, and we're like, at fir- uh, initially I hated it 'cause I was like, you know, you don't wanna give up the number three pick, especially on the heels of the night that Sonia Citron just had. 6:45 I feel like there's, like when we talk about this trade, we, it, historically, right? Like, we're gonna have to remember the fact that the likely number three pick 6:55 g- hit, like, hit a go-ahead shot to send a game to overtime, um, in one of the games in her career that, you know, was kind of her putting together everything that we have been waiting for in terms of, you know, finishing ability, in terms of self-creation, in terms of defense. 7:12 I mean, the defense has always been there, but when you're gonna, you know, like, be able to help and recover on a player like Saniya Rivers, who is a likel- a likely WNBA player, um, it's, 7:25 I think it's a tough, like, I think that had to be tough to swallow as a Chicago fan. 7:28 If you watch that Notre Dame game [laughs] in the morning and you were getting really hyped up about potentially having Sonia Citron on your team, um, and then you trade the number three pick for Ariel Atkins. 7:38 But at the same time, I feel like s- I don't know. Like, this is, to me, this kinda comes down to how you feel about Sonia's ceiling. Um, and I've gone back and forth on it. 7:49 I think her ceiling is pretty close to where Ariel, Ariel Atkins is right now, but she's also one of those types of players that I could see her continually just finding ways to improve incrementally in ways that we don't necessarily immediately think about, especially when you consider her length. 8:02 Maybe she could go in and, and, you know, add, add a post-up game by the time that she's 28. 8:08 But the thing, the place where I've landed, and this is before we even talk about the 2027 pick swap, which I think is another element of this, um, 8:16 if you're Chicago and you're thinking about contending for championships for the decade that you have Camilla Cardoso and Angel Reese, um, and I understand that there's, there's a little impatience there. 8:27 They wanna win now. But if you're thinking about what your true window can be, you realistically want to be able to have a player who can guard the wing and guard 8:41 Caitlin Clark for the next 10 years, and I think Sonia Citron would've been great to do that. 8:47 I think Ariel Atkins is gonna be really great to do that for the next three or four years if, if she stays, if, you know, they, she's, she's on a one-year deal, 2026 is, who, God knows what's happening in 2026 for anybody. 9:01 Um, but I just- Sure. I, I think, I've gone back and forth. I've landed back onto the side of, I think they gave up a little bit too much. I think they rushed things. 9:09 Um, and I don't know if it's necessarily, is necessarily gonna bite them too much. I think we'll see what happens with, you know, the pick swaps and everything and who even declares for the draft. 9:20 Maybe Olivia goes back and Sonia goes to number two. Like, there's, there's all these different factors that we still have to see, but right now that's kinda where I'm at. All right. So 9:30 I understand the impulse from Chicago's perspective, especially if you're in a place with Camilla and Angel where I wouldn't say it's a mandate to the front office, but it's an effort to say, "W- we're tired of losing. 9:45 We're not used to losing. W- win now. Like, let's get people in here to help our roster start to win now." I understand that component. 9:55 I understand the desire to make it look like you're trying ahead of 2026's free agency. But Shani, I, am I going crazy here? 'Cause 10:06 just if you put a shovel in the ground and build the damn facility, it's going to do as much, if not more, than be like- More... "Hey, we traded for Ariel Atkins. 2025, we're not the sky have opened here." 10:21 [laughs] I- Just build, just put the shovel in the ground [laughs] and it's like you're achieving the same thing and showing how much you care. No, do, do that. 10:28 Definitely put the shovel, get the scissors, the big ribbon scissors. Like, get those out. The big quickies, yes. Yeah, yeah. Like, have that on deck, but I, I, I get it though 'cause I'm kind of like, 10:40 I hate, I hate to bring this up 'cause it might be, like, a far-fetched comparison, but it's just like if you're a Pistons fan, right, and you dr- you draft Darko Miličić over Carmelo Anthony. But it's like- Oh... 10:51 then y'all won a championship 'cause, like, it, it worked out. So I'm kinda like, I get it if you put the pieces to win now, and then y'all make a, a solid playoff run. 11:01 And then you can look at free agents and be like, "Hey, you could be what we need. We could get, we could easily get rid of, uh, you know, one of these people. Like, they, we're not married to them." 11:12 [laughs] "So, you know, come to Death Row." Keep Rebecca Allen, though. That's a Sabrina stopper. Like, you're gonna need that. 11:17 Not, like, playoff time 'cause Sabrina stops herself, but I'm just saying during the regular season, like, you're gonna need that. Um, 11:25 I, yeah, I don't think, like, they, they mortgaged their entire future, and I think it could have the ripple effect where, like, we're seeing, like, hey, you know, come on, come on over. 11:35 Shani, I have written that it has been blank days since you slandered Sabrina Ionescu. So we are just going to reset the Sabrina meter- [laughs]... back to zero. 11:49 Beck Allen, great defender of anybody and everybody in this- Right... in this league. We look at everybody in an even-handed way. But do you think, do you think Chicago has the ability here... 12:02 Uh, 'cause my thing is this, right? I look at Atlanta and all the moves that Atlanta made, and it feels like the ceiling of Atlanta is still, like, a five seed. Like-If Chicago- I don't think Atlanta's doing that... 12:13 That's what I mean. Like, what is Chicago's ceiling here, though? Like, yes, you add Atkins, but what realistically is the highest playoff ceiling that you have, assuming 12:24 the natural progression for Camilla and Angel continues and doesn't become this like they stratospherically jump in year two? I think that, I think they battle in Atlanta for that five. 12:36 Like, I don't think this is still a championship roster, but you still... Like, this season with Indiana, right? You wanna get to the playoffs. 12:44 You wanna go ahead and, like, get that out the way and get that experience in. 12:50 And, you know, little things like not being able to make it back home for your first home playoff game, that sticks with you, that, you know, motivates you, that makes you hungry. 13:00 Stuff like that, they still need that experience. So even if it's not like, you know, "We're going to the ch- we're going to the chip," like, you know, get a... 13:11 Be in contention for, like, a home spot, maybe get that five, feel good about yourself. Do you, attract some free agents, but get the shovel out for real. So keep the shovel out. Yeah. 13:24 You're, you're gonna have to bury Jeff if this don't work, so keep the shovel out. [laughs] Who, who do you think will have a worse time of this if, if Sonia Citron, for instance, like, I'm just assuming that is three. 13:35 I know, yeah, like, like you said, Sarah, like, Ol- Olivia could go back to school, and then, like, Sonia probably goes to, and then- Paige could be three. Sorry. Sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Just a fact check here. 13:47 Paige has, has now said that her plan is to go pro. Just wanted to add that in there. Three f- um, I'm thinking of, like, a trade that would potentially even get her at three, and I, I can't think of one right now. 14:01 Maybe like- It would have to be Camilla or Angel. Maybe both. Yeah, exactly. [laughs] Like... Well, with that, with that in mind, like, it just, the only... 14:10 Jeff is gonna get the Nico Harrison treatment if Sonia turns out to be, like, incredible at pick three. 14:16 And Atkins is, like, body breaks down at 29, and all of a sudden you're like, "We could have had an All-WNBA two-way player, and now we have to figure out what to do for the back portion of-" Mm-hmm... 14:26 "our two best players with rookie deals." Um, but the thing for me is, like, I get the vet move just 'cause it feels Aces coded, right? 14:33 Like, the whole component when it comes to what made Vegas so good is leveraging their three players that were on team deals in A'ja Wilson, Ca- uh, KP, and Jackie Young. 14:45 And then you put a bunch of veterans around them, you keep retooling the roster around vets. It, it, it feels Aces-ish, Sarah, does it not? You mentioned three players there though, right? That's fair. 14:59 And one of them was A'ja Wilson. And I, I, I think the world of what Camilla Co- Cardoso and Angel Reese can be, but we're just not there yet. So yeah, I think... 15:10 I wonder if they have over-indexed a little bit on trying to be some of the things that they weren't last year, right? 15:16 Like, they didn't bring back Kennedy Carter, then they bring in a bunch of vets who you know are gonna be pretty good for the locker room in Rebecca Allen, in Kia Nurse, in Courtney Vandersloot. 15:26 Um, and you know, and, and, you know, as you wrote, uh, for, in, in Five Out today, you know, there's, there's an appetite from Angel and, and Camilla to not have [chuckles] things go the same way as it went last year. 15:40 So that's definitely understandable. 15:42 But at the same time, I felt like they actually had already set themselves up pretty well, to Shawnie's point at the beginning of the pod, to put themselves in a position where they would go basically as far as Camilla and Angel could take them. 15:55 Like, this is a team where if Camilla and Angel make the jump that you're hoping for, and I think Camilla in particular is prime for a, a huge jump just considering, um, how injury-prone she was in her first year and how inconsistent, um, that season was and just having to miss the beginning of the year, which is huge for rookies. 16:12 Like, if there's any time that you're gonna miss that's gonna really, really set back your development, it's the beginning of the year and the ability to, like, go through all of camp and all, all those things, right? 16:20 So I think she could just by virtue of that and everything that we're seeing overseas right now from her, her, like, make a huge leap. And I think, like, for-- That would have been... 16:30 That would have sufficed, I think, just to see s- 'cause you were gonna see forward progress no matter what with- Yeah, that's true... 16:37 like, there's just no, there's no doubt just given the way that the second half the season went for them after the Mabey- Mabrey trade and the Kennedy injury and Angel and, you know, everything that was going on, like, with Spud and every- Like, it just, it was going to by virtue of, you know, bringing in Tyler Marsh and a little bit of stability and hopefully the injuries not being quite as, as, as calamitous as they were last year. 16:57 It was gonna be better no matter what. Um, so I don't know. It just, like, they were, they were, they were really well positioned. 17:05 They were really well positioned before they made this deal because if they were able to have that number three pick, um, the pick would've been cost controlled going into 2026. 17:14 So they could have been potentially like the Fever were this year. It's not like the Fever had to make this deep run or, like, go to the second round or, like, go to the finals in order to attract all these free agents. 17:24 What they did was they got to the playoffs and they didn't even win a game, and they could have, that, like- Nope. Game... Chicago I think was already poised to kinda sneak into that eight seed. 17:35 There would've been a fight, and everybody's trying to win this year, um- Mm-hmm... which I don't... That's another sort of layer to this that I, I, I question overall. 17:43 Uh, but they could have already done that, and they could have been really well positioned to say, "Hey, look. Shovels, the shovels are digging. The shovels are in the ground right now. 17:54 Um, our franchise pillars have taken a leap. We made the playoffs or we got close to making the playoffs. 18:00 We showed growth, and now we have all of this money to play with and three stars who are gonna be making less than $90,000 after the, uh, for, like, I think u- up until, you know, the end of 2028 for, uh, th- whoever's gonna be picked here."In a, in a cap that like, I don't know, the cap's gonna what? 18:20 Like triple? I think the cap could... Like it could easily triple in my opinion. I think it's like 3- Like the media rate deal tripled, like yeah... 3 to 5X, yeah. Yeah, right? Like it's... 18:30 If, if it goes 5X and you're looking at some of these rookie deals and you're like, "Holy crap," right? You're looking... You're, you're saying that anyway. 18:37 So to me, like that's, that's the biggest aspect of all of this is, is you would've had a good player, cost controlled up until 2028, and you could've done stuff with that even beyond 2026. Okay. A good counter point, 18:52 culture matters, right? So if everybody is like... If, if the team is imploding on itself, 'cause they could have made the playoffs this year. Mm-hmm. It was just some little things down the stretch. 19:02 And like when you're a young team in that rebuilding mode, those little mistakes, tho- they matter. 19:09 'Cause that's like, again, the difference between like making the playoffs and missing them or like, you know, being a seed six and missing the playoffs. Mm-hmm. 19:16 So it's like if you had to clean house to really like make the stars happy, make the stars comfortable, get them in line with what we're trying to do, get a new vision, get the organization like facing the right direction, 19:32 I, I get it. 'Cause it's like, yes, you can keep this... 19:35 You have the talent on paper, but like if it's an actuality thing where it's like real world Sky and you got like this weird mascot coming around making everyone uncomfortable, and now, you know, we got- That they need to... 19:47 That, that like before... Like yeah, like that they need to fix immediately. Like if they're talking about changing the culture- That's what I'm saying... like that had to be step one. All that comes with it. 19:55 And I'm surprised we haven't seen any movement on that front yet. You know what I'm saying? Like, why would I wanna come with a fake Ellie knockoff? A Temu Ellie. Like no thank you. [laughs] I'm, I'm good on that. 20:08 So it's like on paper it can all look really good, but like, you know- Yeah... if it's forcing people to like want out or like be on Twitter- Mm-hmm... 20:18 saying whatever, and it's like now you're causing all of this stuff and the franchise is imploding and we never reach our potential anyway, now we're scaring the foes and it's like we're, we're not achieving the goal. 20:30 So I understand like you might have to knock off a floor to like build the house up. What if that happens anyway though? Because this is a trend, isn't it? 20:41 Like you give up a bunch of stuff for Kahleah Copper, you give a bunch of stuff up for Marina Mabrey. Where are those players now? 20:47 Candace Parker, now she's retired, but she went to Las Vegas, where I guess she was a free agent, so I mean that doesn't, that doesn't count. Well, see, okay. Go ahead. Here's the thing. 20:54 You give up stuff for Copper, right? Copper got you a championship. She was finals MVP. That's true. Mm-hmm. So I like in the long run- That's true, you live with all that, yeah... that worked. Mm-hmm. 21:03 Mabrey, that could've worked, but again, the locker room stuff- Mm-hmm... it, it wasn't working, so she's like, "Yeah, I wanna win now." And oddly enough she went to Connecticut to do that. 21:14 [laughs] But like- I was gonna say, I- It was a good move at the time. It was a good move at the time. Yeah. It hasn't, it hasn't aged all that great, but- Yeah... who knows? 21:22 By the way, the only reason she's o- I feel like the only reason she's still on that team is because of the q- of the pick swap at this point. [laughs] Oh, yeah. Yes. 21:28 Like that like guy's just wanting a bit more games in Chicago. [laughs] Hate, hate fuels a lot of things and I, I like that. Get them to more wins just off pure hatred. Mm-hmm. 21:38 But I never believe in any, any ideation of the Connecticut Sun- Do you-... so I was kinda like interested in putting it back. Do you think that... So if you're Marina Mabrey, you're pissed- Mm-hmm... 21:50 that your franchise did not honor your trade request. Mm-hmm. So you could mill the year in. However, if you have a really good year, then that makes the, the draft pick of the team that you just left less valuable. 22:03 So then are you motivated by the fact that you could actually by have- having a great year spite the Chicago Sky? Yes. Ooh, that's good hate. I would be like... Yeah. 'Cause on top of that- That's great hate... 22:14 I'm gonna get paid now. 'Cause she has to repair her image. Yeah. 'Cause like forcing your way, mind you, it's like a 12 team, 13 league. I think she's fine. You know, you can't force your way to happiness. Yeah. 22:25 We're, we're approaching 25%- Right... of the league at this point. [laughs] So at some point we're gonna- That's, that's a fair, it's a fair poi- I mean between, yeah, between her and Kennedy, I like... 22:35 [laughs] It's like half, half the league has been. Exactly. But I think she's fine though. 22:39 I don't f- like she's, she's sh- what she does is pretty valuable coming off the bench and- It is, but not if you're forcing your way in... 22:45 I think it's pretty understandable why she would want out of this Connecticut team when you wanted to contend. It's all pretty consistent with what she's wanted, uh, for, for most of her career. 22:55 But y- to your point, it does, it does set her up for a nice bag when everybody's gonna have one to, to give out. Yeah. But it still is like your goals regardless, like, 23:05 you still try to, you know, homie hop to like athlete. You gotta sit still for a second. But that is crazy. [laughs] Sorry. That is a crazy way to characterize that. [laughs] Wow. Wow. Sorry. 23:16 Shaunie, it is, it is 2025, okay? Like we, we - [laughs] This, this is a era of player empowerment, okay? [laughs] I'm like trying to think of artful euphemisms for that that could work in a basketball context. 23:33 I'm not shooting arts, Jamie. Yeah. I, I was gonna say franchise flyer, but that doesn't seem to fit either. Um, [laughs] you know what's crazy is like- Franchise curse [laughs] Apologies in advance. 23:46 [laughs] Um, you know what's crazy is I do think it is a big misnomer that people are looking at M- Mabrey and Atkins counting stats as like an indication- Mm... that you're basically trading for the same player. 23:59 It's like, oh, 15, three and three. Oh, no. Like it's a... No, man. Totally, totally different players. And Atkins is a significant bump net positive on the defensive side of the ball, more than Mabrey is. 24:12 And Mabrey's a good defender, but Atkins is a literal all WNBA defender, so. I like, I like the choice. 24:18 I think we're all settled on like, uh-Like a like with a sprinkling of ethical hate in our choice of this off-season? Yeah, I don't ha- I don't hate it. I think there's consequences. 24:30 Well, should we talk about the 2027 pick aspect of it or? Yeah, I'm down. Yeah. I mean- All right... 20- I will say this for 2027's pick. Yes, that draft is going to be deep, um, but I think if... 24:44 It, it feels like it do- it, it did with last year's draft, where if you don't have a lottery pick, you're kind of just drafting- Yeah... the same way. Mm-hmm. 24:52 It's like four, it's four generational players and then some solid players underneath it. So what, what year is that? 24:58 There's also the fact that these players, like Camilla and Angel, are gonna be in their third year by then. 25:02 Like, you would have to be actively sa- sabotaging situations in order to still land in the lottery and factor in that Toronto and Portland are gonna be in the mix, the Valkyries are gonna be in the mix. 25:12 It's just gonna be really hard to be that bad when you have that much talent already. Like, sometimes... Look, I get it. It's a great draft, but sometimes you miss a boat on these things. 25:19 Like, your timeline is just different. Yeah. I, I 100% feel that. Sha- Shawnie, I know what it's like. It's the Juju, Hidalgo, potentially Latson. Oh, next year. Uh, yeah. Mm-hmm. Next year. Woo. 25:35 I thought that was '28, my bad. Maddy Booker. Yeah. Malicia Belvily. Mikayla Williams, right? Yeah. Yep. Mm-hmm. Mikayla Williams is in that draft too. Like, it'll, it'll- It's a really good draft... 25:46 yeah, it's gonna be nice, but I, I still think that unless you are... There, there's a drop-off in, like, generational to all-star level of player. Mm-hmm. And I feel like we're gonna see that in, in that one. 25:58 Um, transitioning- The also might not be as good... Sorry, just the last thing, like- No, no, do it... the Mystics are gonna be really bad, so the pick swap might not matter. Yeah. The pi- like- Are they? 26:10 The Mystics also, though, I, I kinda like the flip side concept where, like, they have three, four, six in this draft and all of a sudden turn it into, like- Mm-hmm... a core that can actually contend to win titles. 26:22 [laughs] The funny- It could. That would be... but, like, the funniest outcome here is the Mystics turn this into, like, the next dynasty. Hey, hey, hold up. If they take EDDs back out of storage, right? 26:37 Charge that bad boy up, give her one last run with some young, some young legs around her to, like, hold her up, you know. 26:50 I don't want her on my team 'cause everybody kept saying, like, "Ooh, EDD to Vegas," and I was like, "For what?" Like, please be for real here. 26:57 But i- I think it's a cute story for the Mystics, not for me, but for the Mystics I think that's a cute little, you know, farewell tour type deal. You know? Mm-hmm. One last run. 27:08 'Cause they were a very competitive dead last team last year. Granted, you had, like, your- They were, they were the world's-... rookie fury, man... they were the world's most competitive, like, 0-17 team I'd ever seen. 27:20 Yeah. Well, they were a win away from making, like, uh, sports history with how bad of a start that they had. Yeah. [laughs] If they had made the playoffs, 27:27 that would've been the biggest comeback in, like, I think in, you know, professional American sports. Oh, yeah. But I- And then three-quarters of the losses were, like, single digits too. It was wild. 27:36 Exactly, and that's what I'm saying. It's those type of things carry over into the next season. They learn how to compete, and then you have Shakira and Unrivaled, and then you have Aaliyah, like, 27:47 not just, like, skill-wise, but confidence-wise, coming in saying like, "I'm one of those ones," you know? Like, Geno wasn't... I, I can't talk about Geno right now, but, like- [laughs]... y'all slept on me. 28:00 You know what I'm saying? I'm her. You have that mentality. You have the skill set. Now combine, you have the pieces. EDD, man, stop playing with your giant dogs. Put down your woodwork. 28:12 Like, it, it's time to work, sister. Let's go. She's having a good time. 28:16 She's the biggest argument for why this cap needs to spike, because these hand cu- cups are not golden enough for her, and that's, that's a problem. No, she... We, we, we need a little something to bring her back. 28:26 Mm-hmm. Wood- woodworking just can't, it can't do it, man. Mm-mm. The people, the people ask. The people need her. The people demand. Mm-hmm. 28:33 So the craziest thing about what is to come in this draft too is I feel like someone is going to make a rash decision based on how this tournament goes, in my opinion, right? Like, if- Mm. 28:48 Say, like, Olivia Miles or Sonia Citron, like, have an incredible tournament relative to Paige Bueckers or even vice versa, there's going to be dialogue which is going to make all this very funny. 29:01 And I couldn't shake this because I, I was watching TCU play this weekend against West Virginia, and I'm watching Hailey Van Lith cook an otherwise incredible National Defender of the Year level guard in JJ Quinerly. 29:14 And I'm like, "Someone's gonna watch TCU go to, like, the Elite Eight and have HVL lead them and be like, 'HVL to six? Why not?'" And- Okay... 29:26 so I'm curious, like, who is, who's the most random Final Four, like, contender that you can think of? 29:34 Or, and I'll, I'll add the extra layer here, who do you think has the possibility to be the most, like, random breakout star of- Ooh... this tournament too? 'Cause I feel like those two things can dovetail. 29:45 Okay, let's see. Say it first. When you're saying that somebody's gonna make a mistake, I was like, "It's Greg Bibb." And then you said TCU. In my head I literally was like, "Greg Bibb." 29:53 I could see Greg Bibb taking Sedona way too high for, like, no reason other than, like, a rogue double-double. That's so stupid. Like, [laughs] it's Greg Bibb. Mm-hmm. What is the dumbest thing Greg Bibb could do? 30:07 And I actually like that thought exercise, 'cause there's so much he could... 30:11 There are so many ways for Greg Bibb to mess up, but, like, back to your question, I'll, I'll, I'll let our guest go first while I ponder that, 'cause I had an answer earlier- Where-... and now I can't remember. 30:21 Yeah, where is D- Dallas doesn't have any of their pi- uh, other picks other than the first, right? Yes. Oh, he- 'Cause that'd be... Oh, okay. I mean, I c- he couldSydonna one. Oh my gosh. Oh my God. [laughs] Let's not. 30:36 Honestly, it would be like s- Let's- The way, and the way in which, you know, with right now, if Paige goes there, you can't just like shoot that franchise into a, into a canon. Mm-hmm. Like, you could just kind of... 30:46 We could just wash our hands of her. Like, "Oh, she's in Dallas? We don't have to f- think about her at all." Oh, yeah. [laughs] Um, oh, man, that's interesting. I think one player who 30:57 I go back and forth on a lot, but I just think is like simultaneously a little too... She's like, she's in the worst position she could be in, in that she would've fit really well into, uh, the past of the WNBA likely. 31:12 Um, and she would probably fit really well into what the WNBA could be in five years, but right now she just like doesn't have like a, a, a, enough of a foothold to me is Anisa Morrow. Mm. 31:23 But I think Anisa Morrow is an excellent college basketball player who could have a really big tournament run, and some GM could be like, "Oh, well, rebounding always translates. We'll just take her." 31:32 But then it turns out she's like a little too small. And yeah, she can set like great screens, but she's kinda like... 31:40 She's like five years, like the WNBA is five years away from being modern enough to really know how to utilize her in the right way. Yeah. I could, I could see that, 'cause she... 31:51 I feel like this is something Rashard and I argue a lot about in our group chat, is whether or not she has like the ceiling of a high-level prospect, like one with a legitimate ceiling of an all WNBA player when she gets here. 32:04 Um, the one thing that turned me around on Morrow is, uh, her, she's l- as long as Napheesa Collier is. Yeah. 32:11 And to me there was like this idea of, all right, well, like that length defensively could translate, and we're seeing it with Angel right now- She's got the wingspan... 32:18 where like defense and rebounding is at least an entryway in. Mm-hmm. And then you can maybe get it figured out on the offensive side of the ball. 32:25 Um, but also LSU this year feels, uh, this is gonna be like- LSU Paper Tigers? Well, it's weird, 'cause like I did this with them in 2023 where I was like, "Uh, whatever. 32:37 We'll see 'em in March when they end up losing to somebody of note," 'cause they haven't played anybody this year and the, and the best teams they played- And then what happened?... they've lost to. 32:44 And then what happened? [laughs] Like, there, there's such a weird- You ruined the world. Oh, yes. My, my pack ruined the world. L- L- Little domino. L- literally that was, that was- [laughs]... 32:57 karmic retribution is like when t- You changed women's basketball forever for the worst. 33:01 [laughs] Oh, there will one day be a legendarium on that, on that game in the last 30 seconds, and it, that- White man does it again. The... [laughs] The, the worst person you know- Yeah... 33:15 has altered the course of human history as we know it. [laughs] Yeah. And it's not Keith Olbermann. [laughs] Even though you, you think it is. [laughs] What? Huh. Oh my God. 33:26 I haven't even, I haven't thought of Keith Olbermann in a long time, man. I hadn't until I saw... Like, I only ever think about him when I'm watching BoJack Horseman and I'm watching him play like the whale. Um- Yes... 33:37 and when I think about that night and his tweet, like those are the two moments. Yeah. Golly. What- Yeah... what a fascinating character Keith Olbermann is. Yeah. My, just as an aside- Mm-hmm... 33:50 one of the best under the radar Saturday Night Live sketches ever was Ben Affleck as Keith Olbermann on the Olbermann Reports. Oh, I've never seen that. Oh, it is so good. It's... 33:58 Wh- when we're done with this, Ben Affleck- Okay... and Keith Olbermann is, is gonna be the thing. Um, 34:05 more shocking than Ben Affleck as Keith Olbermann, shouts to Tyler, the concept of an NC State team making the Final Four again. On the back of Azia James and someone decides, "I'm gonna take her at like four or five." 34:24 And, and you end up seeing like a Kiki Iriafen or a Dominique Molanga drop because Azia James goes nuclear in March and Westmore somehow out Westmores himself and makes it to another Final Four. 34:38 That feels like the strange one, but the one that is entirely possible based on what we just saw this weekend. Don't say it. I don't know. Don't say it. I mean- Don't say, Kai. Don't say, Kai... 34:47 I mean, I mean, oh my g- I could see it. I could see it. 34:52 If there was gonna be a 5'9" guard that could come into the league and have star potential, it would be somebody with her level of athleticism, shot-making, defense, right? Like... I have to imagine. 35:06 She's better than the other shorter guards on that list, like whether it's HVL or Powpow or who else is kind of on that s- small guard depth chart. Well, uh, Georgia Amoore could play. Yeah, Amoore's down there. Yeah. 35:19 Mm-hmm. Yeah. I, um, I don't know, Shawnie, what do you think? Okay. So first off, Westmore is going to hell. [laughs] I saw that picture online, and it was like already solidified because of that bowl cut. 35:30 But now posing with that sign, you're going to hell, sir. Wait, what happened? Some like NC- Can you tell it? Westmore... Yeah, you can tell it. 35:38 Yeah, like some NC State fan had a Angel Reese sub sign, and it's just like- Mm... you can't say that, white baby. Why would you... Like, what are you, what are you doing? 35:48 And Westmore is like posing with him doing the little wolf pack thing, and I'm like, "Why are you posing with him?" So he's going to hell. Just wanna put that out there. 35:55 Wait, was this like, was this at, at the Notre Dame game? Yes. So it was even more- Are we sure about that? Why are we re- why are we bringing up... Look, yeah, if it's an LSU game, I can get with it. 36:05 That's what I'm saying. But- Like, I don't understand where this even came from, but like unless it's AI, and I need proof that it's AI and somebody like, you know, made that, um, that's my stance. 36:17 He and his bowl cut are on the elevator down. What I think the most random team to make the Final Four, Iowa. Like- [laughs]... and it would be random because, like, what are y'all doing back? 36:31 [laughs] Who let you through? How did you get back in here? Oh my God. Lucy Olsen, you are an Indiana Fever. [laughs]Like, what are y'all doing back here? [laughs] I can see like 36:43 Hannah Stuelke finally like taps into, you know, combos. Yeah. Hannah Stuelke, we start seeing the guard play, we start seeing the three-point shot. We start seeing some stuff that we ain't never seen before. 36:56 We get some classic four-verts. I mean, they've been looking good. They, they- They've been looking good. By the way, I was at the USC game, um, last night, and somebody asked Kiki... 37:05 Well, somebody asked everybody what they're looking forward to most in the Big Ten tournament. Love it. And Kiki Iroegbu straight up said, "Playing Iowa." Mm-hmm. I like that. And that's fascinating to me. I like that. 37:15 Lindsay was also getting spicy with the UCLA, uh, rivalry as well, so I like that. Yeah. I like they're, they're, they're playing into all the rivalries. The Iowa thing is interesting. That's crazy. What? 37:26 Like- I said that, like in the hater guide, it was like the Big Ten is full of drama. Like you got Big Ten protocol from top to bottom. Mm-hmm. And so this, that, like the Big Ten tournament is going to be a bloodbath. 37:39 I ask which one? And I think it's going to be a good one. 37:41 So I think if Iowa can like, you know, even if like USC wins or UCLA wins and they come in like second, third- Mm-hmm They're still in good shape for the tournament. 37:50 They could sneak some teams from other conferences, so I could see, you know, some teams sleeping on them a little bit and then it's like, oh my God. Okay. What? Another haircut. Huh? Like, you know, it... 38:03 Iowa's back, Stuelke's back. We get some classic four-verts. They start calling the moving screens. Geno is back. [laughs] I don't know, man. I could see it. I- I could see it. 38:17 It's like the meme of, uh, of Moe throwing Barney out of the bar in, uh, The Simpsons. 38:23 [laughs] Where it's like you throw Barney out and Moe's like doing this, and all of a sudden in the door, like Barney's just back there. [laughs] Like that's Jan Jensen. 38:32 Like Jan just set up at Amalie Arena at Tampa like six months ago and nobody noticed. No. All of a sudden it's April and Jan pops out and it's like, where'd Jan Jensen come from? 38:42 Like, how's she been here this whole time? [laughs] No, um, Andrew, have you seen The Office? The, the Dwight meme. Yes. Where he's like looking at the chick and like Angela's standing right there and he goes... 38:51 [laughs] It's just Iowa. Stuelke. [laughs] Oh my God, dude. Like- Give me the daylight... he just pops in like, "What is this? What are y'all doing?" [laughs] All right, I'm in on this. 39:08 I am now ready, I am now ready to stan an Iowa impromptu Final Four trip. I'm, I'm, I'm ready for this. [laughs] Impromptu would be awesome. 39:18 Low-key, like I will say this for Iowa, damn near every game has been like a single digit loss. I know Jan's like, "No more moral victories, we can do it." If there were ever a time to- Right... 39:32 peak at the right time and turn moral victories into tangible victories- Mm-hmm... mind you- Mm-hmm... it, it feels, it feels like March. And it's crazy because like there's no... 39:42 To me, this year feels as wide open a field as we've had since probably 2019. Um, I, I don't, I could not tell you a runaway favorite. 39:53 I could tell you two or three, four teams that I think could be there, but very well also could get upset in the Sweet 16 or Elite Eight inexplicably and for no reason. Um, 40:05 so I am extremely curious about who ends up with what match up and how much that's going to affect the randomness. Mm-hmm. 40:14 'Cause I don't necessarily know if we're gonna get any mid-majors that make a deep run, like Richmond's up there, South Dakota State's up there as maybes to do that. 40:24 Um, I'd love to see Fairfield do it 'cause they're friends of the pod, but I, I'm thinking Fairfield maybe as like a first, second round team. Um, God, rand- you know what's a random one and a random star to go nuclear? 40:37 Tennessee and Talaysia Cooper. It, again, a very Iowa coded. Mm-hmm. Like they realistically should have maybe four losses this year. Like they haven't been out of any games. 40:50 They were sing- they had single digit losses to, uh, LSU and Vanderbilt. Those were both buzzer beater losses. Um, they kind of sold it against Oklahoma. 41:01 They got close to South Carolina and had really one bad quarter that sunk them. Uh, they just, they... I'm pretty sure they were close to Texas. Like, I don't know. Yeah. It just... And it feels like you get really hot. 41:13 It, it has like UMBC NCAA Men's Tournament vibes to it, where it's like hit a bunch of threes and all of a sudden you are absolutely unbeatable, unstoppable. 41:25 Talaysia Cooper feels like the exact type of like March-ish kind of player. And it- Mm-hmm... it's like Kim Caldwell, like second coming of Pat agenda. Like that. She had the baby this year. Yeah. 41:38 I mean, you know who has- Like, it, it feels like, it- it's feeling like '95 or whatever they say down there. The winner is- No, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait... you know who's got Marge written all over her? Go ahead, 41:49 Shani. No, I was gonna say Greg Kate. Big Baby takes over if she gets hot one. I was gonna say Jewel Spear. I was gonna say Jewel Spear. Or would that be... [laughs] I like both of these picks, mind you. Yeah. 41:59 No, but like, no, Jewel Spear is a hoover. Like I, I could see... Like they do have a number of people that can like turn up and- Yeah... all of a sudden it's- They've been looking good... it's a different tournament. 42:12 I mean, they've been looking really good. Even LSU too. I think they're, it was like within five for one- Mm-hmm... and then like within three for the other. It took, it took that game winner. Um, 42:22 I don't know, just like and, and to your point, Andrew, with their style, it's like, yeah, you get hot, you hit a bunch of threes, you win the possession battle, you out-rebound a team. 42:29 If like, you know, if, if you, you get... I mean, let's say a Notre Dame, for example, a team that can struggle on the offensive glass at times. Ooh. 42:37 And Hannah Hidalgo's having an off shooting night.And Olivia Miles, who we just actually saw struggle against NC State- Mm-hmm... 42:44 I think she really struggled against the physicality and quickness of, of, of, of, you know, that, o- of that team. So I think, you know, if all the sudden she has to deal with, you know, Ruby Whitehorn, Talaysia Cooper, 42:59 she might have a similar game. She, she has... Olivia Miles in particular too, and I know, like, there's probably still some, like, DraftNick folks that are listening to this. 43:08 Like, there has been a discussion for the last couple years about how she does against top-end competition, and there is an element to her that I feel like is... 43:18 And Shani, just, just cover your ears like this or, or just take the headphones out for a sec. Just read your phone again. 43:23 She's kind of s- similar to Sabrina in terms of the ability to distribute, but may not have a fast enough first step that she needs to get used to that if she faces faster defenders in the W. Mm. Okay, no. 43:37 So I- Yeah, that, that felt like the issue... I feel like it... No, 'cause when you said that I was like, "This is very Walt Hawkins coded." Like he said verbatim- Yeah [laughs]... 43:44 like Sabrina struggles against, you know, quicker, more athletic guards. Mm-hmm. So when you were saying that, I was like, you make her sound like Sabrina, but I didn't wanna, like, start again. See, [laughs] yeah. 43:55 I, I was ready. I didn't wanna start. I literally was thinking- Um... like this is a Walt Hopkins coded comment. [laughs] Yep. I was ready to set that back to zero and actually, I'm, I'm very proud of you. 44:04 We have, we are now what, like- Can we like insert the sign? Like, just pop it up over all of our faces, like- Mm. Like it, it would not even- Slender one, slender two. Yeah. Tony Reali style. Yes. I can do that. 44:21 Tyler can do that. That's what we'll, that's what we'll bring him back and forth. Zero and eight. Yes. So- It's like we were trying to lift the one, and then it just went right back to zero. 44:28 It just went right back to zero. I need, I need a... We've, we have the, like, the NBA meme, right? Like the famous, "The NBA has gone zero days without being unnecessarily dramatic," 44:40 which is hilarious because it is still going on, even at this very moment. Um- Yes... but I, I really am interested in the necessary dramatics of the back end of our college basketball season here. Because 44:57 how compelling we have two potential de facto regular season championships that can be played this Saturday. We have a n- a coin flip, like a legitimate possible Greg Sankey holds out a quarter 45:11 and is like, "Heads or tails?" And they, like, fly it up and it could be South Carolina, could be Texas to win the SEC. And there's like a multitude of mid-majors also that make for compelling races. 45:23 So, like, I'm curious, Shani, I, I already see the stress. I... That makes me wanna vote coin toss by Greg Sankey to decide the SEC as my most compelling. 45:36 'Cause, like, something stupid would happen where it's like, what's that movie where the coin just, like, falls on its side and it's just, like, standing straight up? 45:44 It doesn't even-- You don't even get the real flip, and it's just, I don't know, man. I don't like a coin toss. I don't like that we're in the position for a coin toss, but- In- inception? Are you thinking of inception? 45:56 I think so. What? [laughs] I think so. If, I don't remember. I just remember a movie, and then there was a coin, and it was standing up. 46:06 I feel like this happened in like a, not this movie particularly, but it happened in like an Air Bud type movie. [laughs] Air Bud. [laughs] Yeah. It was either Inception or Air Bud, like one of the two. 46:16 Yeah, one of those two. Yeah. [laughs] That is a wide variance. [laughs] You know, two genres. I would pay to see Air Bud in Inception. 46:25 [laughs] Like go to the third level of the dream with this dog and see what he suggests for you. Who's, uh, whose dream, whose dream would be- he be in? His own. Oh. The coaches. 46:39 Oh, and it's in black and white because dogs can't see color. [laughs] Like... Oh, we got a sequel here. We got a, we got the crossing- Yeah... we didn't know we needed. Mm-hmm. Yep. Yeah. 46:51 This is- This is like the natural step up from, like, the addiction to franchising. It's gonna be AI mashups of all your favorite movies and none, none of them are gonna make any sense. Oh my God. 47:02 It's all downhill from here. That'd be, that's like the s- that's the slop we say we hate, and then, like, we're gonna watch it- Oh, we're just gonna look at it... 'cause we're gonna be like, "Oh my God, like-" Yeah... 47:09 "And Emperor Palpatine's in The Last Airbender." Mm-hmm. "Like, what's he doing here?" [laughs] Well, I can't wait to use up all of our watches. What is this, a crossover episode? 47:18 [laughs] Gonna make the world ending that much better. Like this is w- it was all worth it. Yep. It was all worth it. Mm-hmm. Yeah. The, the meteor, the meteor is all that I would need anyway, and if it happens that 47:33 it wipes out, like... If it had w- wiped out the Super Bowl, I would've been happy with that. Like Eagles, Chiefs. [laughs] Two teams that I just loathe more than anything on the planet. I do not. 47:42 I'm glad we don't really have any of those- No... in, like, the world of women's basketball right now. You know? Like two teams where you're like, "I hate them." 47:50 What, what would you, w- what would be your equivalent of that? Like would that, was that, would that be LSU Texas for you? No, it would be UConn LSU. Oh. Yeah. And then it would be- Sarah, do you have one of those?... 48:04 UConn. No, I don't. Like I feel, I haven't been following long enough to have, like, these deep resentments quite yet. I kind of like everybody. Okay. 48:13 I like, I fi- I find it-- I know, I know this is not the answer that you want here, but- This is a very Canadian answer, though. [laughs] It's a Canadian answer, but it's also, I mean, part of it is being... 48:24 Well, it is a Canadian answer in that it's, it's part of it is being new to the pageantry of college athletics. 48:30 I find-All of these teams so fascinating in their history and their culture and, like, the way they do things, and there's, like, the whole-- the band is playing, and, you know, you've got these coaches that are these larger-than-life personalities and all of that. 48:43 It's just all fun for me. Like, you just get a different side of it every time. 48:46 So I say, if anything, I would like to see a little bit-- I would like to see new characters, for sure, just for the sake of the novelty of it all. 48:54 You know, I would love to see, I would love to see Texas make a deep run for, for, not necessarily for the on-court aspect of it, not my favorite team to watch play, but hook 'em Horns. 49:05 Let's, yeah, let's, let's put that on a national stage. I feel like it's, it's been a minute. So yeah. She wants to Nick Schaefer strip. You're a sicko. [laughs] She doesn't want to be Nick Schaefer's jacket. 49:15 Like, this is-- I am-- You-- This just-- Like, you know, between this and, like, the homie hopping thing, I just feel like you really need to open your mind, Shawnie. 49:24 [laughs] You're freaked out and- Get your head out of the gutter... she's just freaked out. No, it's-- Hon-honestly, I just like- What the heck? Your, your, your stan- Your just, like, heteronormative standards. 49:35 [laughs] This puritanical shit that you're on. But that's not- I just don't vibe with it, you know? [laughs] Let Nick Schaefer do whatever the hell he wants to. What? Look. You're saying a white man do whatever he want. 49:46 Uh, see, now that I can't stand for. [laughs] That's touche. [laughs] This honestly- Not on our show. [laughs] Not during this month. 49:58 [laughs] See, he's- Oh, God... he knows better. Yep. 50:10 This is, this is, this is what happens when you have to get forged in the crucible of what used to be Clubhouse when Shawnie was really at her most untethered- Oh. To the neces- the necessary reality of 50:23 being on a show now, you know? Mm-hmm. Or wait, so Sarah, I'm curious, are you going to UCLA-USC this weekend? Yeah, I'll be there. Are you coming in? Yeah. 50:30 So as someone who's new to the pageantry, and we're like way off, I'm just like curious now. Mm-hmm. What do you, like, what do you want to see from a game like that, that is, for all intents and purposes, 50:44 a rivalry, but one that's just learning to be its rivalry- Ooh... self again? Well, I think Lindsay kinda got things started senior night. 50:53 Um, mentioned a couple times that she's, she wanted the, uh, USC fans to go over there and paint the arena red like only they know how, so I appreciate that. It's a budding crosstown rivalry, right? Mm-hmm. 51:11 Um, just, I, I think it's... I don't know. I th- I think it's interesting. 51:14 I think especially when you think about the history of U- USC and UCLA and what they kind of represent in LA, you can get into some really messy race stuff, which it, you know, it's just not even fun anymore because people are so weird, so maybe let's not do any of that. 51:29 Uh, but it's there. Like, there's definitely a history when you think about, like, especially, like, basketball and, and football and all of that too. 51:36 So there's, there's that aspect of it and, like, just, like, their locations in the city as well. Um, I think I need a little bit more participation from Cori Close. I think Cori Close is a little too meta about it. 51:52 I think she understands that it's a storyline, but she doesn't necessarily participate in the storyline in the way that I would like her to. 51:59 Um, and this is also, by and large, right now, a roster that is full of players who are highly competitive, but not necessarily antagoni- antagonizing anybody, you know? 52:14 Um, maybe if we have, like, Reya a- and Kiki and Lauren Betts, like, get in, get into a real front court battle, throw Janiah in there, we can see some true animosity start to develop between the two. 52:26 I think Kiki, in particular right now, um, is feeling very competitive. Um, I think the Iowa loss, the Iowa loss, I think, hit USC overall, but I think Kiki in particular seems pretty hyped up since, since that happened. 52:40 So yeah, I just want... Right now it's still, you know, they go back and forth. It's fun. It hasn't hit the point where they ha- they haven't played the, each other enough times now to hate each other, right? 52:52 But it could happen. It could be this game. It could also happen in the tournament as well. It's, like, more than likely that that will, tho- that, that those two will probably be, like, the, the, the championship game. 53:03 Um, and maybe March, who knows? But we're gonna have two, right? Like, the first one was just- Mm-hmm... like the, the first of three. The, the... You get, like, the tactical stuff. 53:13 It's also, you know, man, one-- There's, there's some juice in, like, the Juju matchup too because Kiki, Kiki actually- Mm... Kiki Rice, not Kiki Irafen. 53:23 I think Kiki Irafen could definitely throw some fuel on the fire as well because she is an absolute gamer, and she came in- Mm... she wanted to shut Juju down. She could not. 53:32 They had to throw in a lot of different defenders on her. They had to throw London Jones. They have a lot of players- The spirit was there... that can annoy her. What's that? [laughs] The spirit was there. 53:40 The spirit was there. And she had a great, she had a great game in a, in, in a lot of other respects as well. Um, they were-- Everybody was super locked in. Everybody was super locked in. 53:49 There's definitely some potential, and you have, like, the sort of, you know, you have the best defense versus the best offense and all of that. But yeah, I think there's, there's room. Like, there's just no... 53:57 I mean, there's, there's, uh, the kindling, the kindling is there. We're just waiting for it to ignite. Something needs to ignite it. Knowing that, like, it's the... Uh, 'cause I agree. 54:09 I feel like this game could be the one that builds it out. Mm-hmm. Especially if, if UCLA beats Wisconsin, then both are one-loss Big Ten teams. Yeah. This is now a Big Ten regular season championship because of that. 54:22 Does that make this finish, out of all the conferences, like, does that make this more compelling than, say, South Carolina-Texas or TCU and Baylor? Like, does, does this one matter the most? 54:34 Well, yeah, 'cause just by virtue of them playing each other for itYeah Right? Like, if you're playing other teams and you're kind of like... 54:39 You know, it's just, it's a little bit different watching South Carolina saying, "Okay, are they gonna be able to get through Ole Miss and Kentucky, um, to, to potentially tie for the SEC title?" 54:48 That's just way different than, uh, it actually being, like, those two teams tied in the standings, and now... 54:54 Especially the fact that USC is the only rea- USC winning that game's the only reason that this is even a conversation. Yes. I would agree with that. I, it, 55:06 it is, to me, there's three, there's three games that, like, matter to me in that respect. 55:12 Like, TCU-Baylor is another one where if they went out, um, that game, I believe, is at Baylor and is the Big 10-- uh, Big 12 regular season championship. Mm-hmm. 55:22 You've got this one that is the de facto SEC championship. It sucks because Notre Dame-NC State had the potential to kind of be that this past weekend before NC State lost to UNC, and 55:36 I hate that realignment has made me into this, you know? 'Cause, like, I'm the Pac-12 guy. I'm the West Coast basketball dude. Like, my conference died for this. 55:46 Like, to take it all the way back to the beginning of the episode, karmic retribution for Utah losing to LSU was that the Pac-12 be destroyed. [laughs] That's how everything had to be, like, set back into order. 55:57 It's like you have opened a ripple in space-time, and thus your conference is dead. And- What did it cost you? Everything. Literally everything. [laughs] Like, literally everything, bro. Um, 56:08 and but I, I can't really remember the last time the schedules have aligned in such a way, outside of mid-majors, where, like, we've gotten these basically, like, championship match-ups against teams that are, you know, ranked two and four. 56:23 Uh, what is it, like, 10 and 18 or so for Baylor. Like, it's, it's fascinating. Um, and it makes the sport better, right? 56:33 Like, it-- to me, that's kind of the thing that I took away from that first game between UCLA and USC was that, you know, this was a generational performance by Juju, but this is also a generational opportunity for fans to build fandoms, right? 56:48 Like, if you're a parent and took your daughter to that game in Galen, like, there is a very good chance your daughter comes out of this a women's basketball fan- Mm-hmm... and wants to be around the sport. 56:57 That passes through a generation, and now 15 years from now, that kid is, you know, locked in- Mm-hmm... to the league as a growing product. This one- One thing I've noticed... Sorry, um, go ahead. No, take it. 57:10 One thing I noticed anec-anecdotally too is just talking to my friends who are basketball fans who went to UCLA or went to USC and weren't necessarily, um, you know, big supporters of, of the women's basketball side of it, now they are super locked in because it has reignited their hatred of, you know, each other's school, even if that, like that was built by like football or, or men's basketball. 57:32 They are now, you know, like the football programs for both schools just don't, are not really relevant anymore. Mm-hmm. Right? So that sort of hate now has this proxy in, in, in USC- Yeah, that's true... and UC-UCLA. 57:47 And then like- Charlotte did, did South Carolina ever have one? Oh, sorry. Continue. Oh, no, sorry, because I was that kid that went to a UCLA women's game, like when I was, uh, in the sixth grade. 57:59 And Felicia Ragland, wherever you're at, I hope you're having a wonderful night. Oregon State legend. That's right. Pac-12 Player of the Year. She cooked them, torched their faces. She scored, what, 31 that night? 58:12 And it was the most incredible thing I've ever seen in my entire life. Like, I knew she had next. Like, I, like, I left that game like, "Yeah, she-- that's, that's my girl." Like, that's where I wanna be. Yeah. 58:21 Like, that's where I wanna... Like, I gotta- Mm-hmm... pull my socks up. I gotta get some headbands. Like, you gotta do it. Like, and it was just Oregon State and UCLA. 58:28 Fun fact, there's a coach now in the W that was on that team. I distinctly remember her getting her face shot off. We'll talk about that later. But- [laughs] I think I know exactly who you're talking about. Yeah. 58:38 [laughs] Yeah. What was, what was it for South Carolina? Like, do you re- Like, what was the, the South Carolina game that you recall was like the generational South Carolina game? 58:49 Like, that had to have been in Asia's tenure there, yeah? Okay, so that's a little difficult for me because, again, Dawn comes my, uh, senior year of high school. 59:00 So then I graduate, go to college out of state, and then like travel around for work, like, covering sports as a profession. So it's like I wasn't really home and able to see... 59:10 You know, like I'm watching it on TV- Mm-hmm... but I'm not able to be there- Mm... to like feel the hate and feel the drama. Yeah. 59:17 'Cause it's like Clemson, South Carolina does not hit the same on the court as it does in football. Like, it, it just don't. Yeah. And so then there was a time where like Mississippi State was that moment. 59:28 You know, there was a time, um... Yeah, it's just been like different teams at different moments. 59:34 But like I, during that foundational piece, I wasn't home to hate, so I can't really like, you know, gauge and say for sure, like this was not we wanted them, NCLA, you know, hung up by their socks. Mm-hmm. 59:50 Like take, take their- Yeah... faces- Mm I don't think there was ever like a hate... 59:55 When I covered Oregon, I don't know if there, there was ever like a hate component to it, but like there was a generational-- The Team USA game was like the generational game. Mm. 1:00:04 Like the one that built casual fans in the state around that team and around Sabrina was her pulling up from like 35 in 2019 over DT and beating Team USA in like the final minutes. 1:00:19 Um, and like that, that's the kind of thing that I think these games... The Big 12 and Big 10 specifically I love because there, there's just such like a juice to them, right? 1:00:29 Like one or two major moments in that game, right? Like say, say HVL hits like a game-winning three to win TCU's first ever Big 12 regular season title on literally the final game of the regular season. 1:00:43 That, to me, I think would matter to fans more than- Mm-hmm... cruising to a conference tournament win by 16 points. You know? 1:00:52 Um, like even though there's another title technically to be won here, those two conferences, the fact that they're basically de facto finals games are-It just makes everything- Yeah... so, so, so much better. 1:01:06 Um, but I- I'm psyched. Like, I, I feel really good about UCLA this time around. 1:01:12 Um, I'm curious, like, the full health of Lauren Betts, like, especially given how much work she's going to get down low, and they're gonna feed her as much as humanly po- uh, humanly possible. 1:01:24 Um, and also, this is gonna sound crazy, I'm very curious about how good the UCLA crowd is. Yeah. Because I do think it's been a harder build with the fan base in UCLA this season. Mm. 1:01:37 And maybe the games are late, and maybe I'm just not seeing it well on TV, Pauley doesn't look as full as it could be. 1:01:44 And if you're not careful, USC fans, like you mentioned, Sarah, like, they might run in the trap and take over the trap here- Mm... a little bit. I'm very, I'm very concerned. Well, that falls into the storyline, right? 1:01:55 Because I think UCLA, despite being the number one team for most of the year, has flown under the radar nationally, but also locally. 1:02:04 They don't get ta- like, the, the people who talk to me about the UCLA Bruins are people who went to UCLA, you know? Mm. 1:02:11 Um, whereas Juju, USC, she's on billboards, Nike, Super Bowl, documentary, like, there is just a lot of hype around Juju right now that hasn't necessarily coalesced around UCLA or Lauren Betts, who, like, still, despite how the team is playing, despite her injury, like, it helps that Hannah had a bad game. 1:02:32 To me, she's still the national player of the year. Yeah. And that just hasn't quite been there. 1:02:37 They're sort of, despite being in this market and being UCLA, like, there's a degree to which they have been the little engine that could. 1:02:44 Um, and it's strange, because they're a really fun team to watch too, and they, they play a great style, and I don't think that necessarily... 1:02:51 I think maybe what they need is a few more marquee matchups, because they've actually won most of their games by too much for it to really be compelling or really matter. 1:03:01 Um, and they also just didn't ha- they haven't had a lot of big games, you know? It was like, it was UCLA, South Carolina early in the season. I think that put them on the map. 1:03:10 If they had had a few other bigger games, um, in non-conference play to really start to build that momentum, I think it could've gone a little bit differently. 1:03:18 'Cause I think that's what we got with, uh, USC too, you know? Like, they had the early loss against Notre Dame that I think really injected some drama into their season. 1:03:27 Then they have a huge game against UConn, which I still think is the most watched game of the year, o- of the season this year. Mm-hmm. Right? Um- Yep... like, they just didn't have... 1:03:36 And I mean, it's maybe it's a little bit harder to create, like, the marquee center matchup as well. Like, it's, it's a little bit more difficult than it is to, you know, have two perimeter players, uh, dueling. 1:03:47 So yeah, they, they do feel like they're almost a year away from being able to have a foothold in people's imaginations. So Cori Close needs to go steal the mascot head is what you're telling me? 1:04:02 'Cause that's the- Cori Cl- Cori Close, like, is the mascot. You know, she, she, she resem- she resembles- [laughs]... like, a friendly bear oftentimes to me. Yeah. 1:04:12 [laughs] That there's t- moments in which you are, like, terrified of her because she's deeply, deeply intense, and you kinda see how she is after a loss. 1:04:23 And, like, sort of wa- watching, like, full court press and her speeches and stuff, she's a deeply passionate person. Um, at the t- same time, there's something very warm and cuddly about her as well. 1:04:35 So I mean, maybe it's just, like, maybe it just has to be her being, like, the face of the program, like a Kim Mulkey type or a Dawn Staley type where it's actually she is the draw. I was gonna say... I could see that. 1:04:46 Okay. She's got a little John Wooden too. She's a bit of a philosopher, and she, like, really gives a sh- Yes... she gives a shit about how the game is played, you know? Like, she's a little old school- Yeah... 1:04:55 that way as well. Would never go full Mulkey. No. I don't think- No, I-... I don't think Cori Close going full Mulkey. I don't think she's- I don't think she's even built for that. She's not... It's- Yeah... yeah. 1:05:06 [laughs] She's almost like she's a little too smart for it all. Like, that's like, and that, that's maybe UCLA as well, like, from a mar- like, they're a little too smart for it all. 1:05:14 [laughs] She's got, like, she's got, like, um, it's like microdosed Bill Walton. Rest in peace. Yes. Oh. Like, like, if, if Bill, if you could, if you could just do, like, little droplets of Bill Walton- Mm-hmm... 1:05:29 and just be like, and go, you'd get Cori Close. It's kinda like, yeah- And how, like, Cori Close talks about the game. It's kind of like- I need her, like, live response to this... 1:05:37 finding out that your strict Buddhist teacher actually started getting into, like, psychedelics. Yeah, I need her live response to this. Like, I need her reaction- Yeah. [laughs]... to be described as a Cori Close bear. 1:05:49 Cori Close, come on No Crotch Space. I think so. Yeah. [laughs] I can say, I can say goodbye to, to our next UCLA luxury tax interview. [laughs] Long, long text to Cori. Hey. [laughs] So funny. 1:06:02 It's all entertainment purposes. [laughs] It would be amazing if Cori Close was tuned into the final, like, hour and seven minutes of, of this podca- she should be. She should be. 1:06:12 Back when I was, back when I was on Twitter, I was convinced Jeff Walz followed me because I kept making the Heisenberg joke about him. 1:06:20 And so, like, my, my thing has always been with Jeff Walz, like, especially over the last handful of years, Walz goes and you're not really thinking much about his teams, and all of a sudden you wake up in March and they're, like, in the Elite Eight, and you're like, "How the hell did they do this?" 1:06:35 And outside of one year last season, like, they've done this where since COVID, every season everyone's like, "Is Louisville really that good? I don't know. It seems like they're losing their team." Mm-hmm. 1:06:46 "Jeff might be just like Brenda Frese." And then all of a sudden it's like, boom, second weekend, Louisville's living. And you're like, "What the fuck is this?" 1:06:54 And so it's like the Jesse Pinkman he can't keep getting away with it gif. 1:06:57 [laughs] And every time Louisville would win a major game back in 2023, I just kept using the gif, and all of a sudden one dayHead coach Jeff Walz is following you on Twitter, and I'm like, "Someone fucking sent Jeff Walz the Heisenberg sketch." 1:07:14 [laughs] And now that's gonna be if I ever get to a point where I'm like, "Hey, come on the show. Like, you are my Walter White, and I can be Jesse Pinkman, but not in a meth-y way." 1:07:28 Like, do you have h- do you have anybody that you've ever done that with where, like, y- you've been either a fan of them on Twitter or have, like, talked about them on Twitter as a player or a coach, then all of a sudden they're like, "Yeah, I know you 'cause I know that you tweet about me"? 1:07:43 I started to get real careful about it once I started actually going into locker rooms, but before, um, I did... I tried to professionalize my, uh, my Twitter usage. My handle was Damian Lillard. 1:07:57 Um, and I always wondered, but I've never actually had to ha- I've never had a coach, like, call, call anything out. Um, 1:08:04 and there are many moments in which it could have happened, and I think I've gotten lucky in that regard. [laughs] I feel like, Shawnie, the, the s- Slack mama has to be known. They just usually block me. 1:08:19 [laughs] 'Cause it's like, it's, it's like- Who will you block by? Oh, man. [laughs] Oh, this is a great, this is a great question. Skylar, uh, Enrique. Greg Bibb. He, he's not blocked me yet somehow. 1:08:35 A- and Nor has the, um, wing. They... I thought they were gonna block me. I thought the wings had you blocked. [laughs] Um, Kirsten Bell just blocked me this year. Um, probably Chloe Bibb. I don't remember. 1:08:49 [laughs] Uh, yeah, that's off top the only ones I remember. Honestly, though, that's... You're, you're three, you're three seats to a starting five there. Yeah, and I- Small ball, small ball rotation. 1:09:01 Skylar Enrique, Kirsten Bell. We get you a, a four and a five. You might have a all WNBA block spot. Mm-hmm. Yeah, you started... You gotta start antagonizing some forwards. Why are you... 1:09:10 Why is it always guards for you? They're always doing something. They, they just, they just be doing stuff. 1:09:17 They're inefficient, and I say it, and then they get mad about it, and then they go and say like, "Oh, watch this." You love inefficient players, so... Typically, but, like, there's a level to it. But, like, four for 25? 1:09:28 Mm. Like, what? No. Heavens no. Like, I feel like- And then, like, the other one, it was a tweet... I feel like Russ has definitely put up four for 25 at some point. He never will. [laughs] Never. 1:09:39 Never, never, never, never. Never. Never. Never. Never. Never. What? You gotta take it out 'cause she's, she's, she's, she's disrespecting the house. She's putting her feet on my couch. Y- like, get us out of here. Okay. 1:09:55 Feet are going on the couch. My final thought. Guards, guards are the new NFL wide receivers. They are, they are the new, the enemy speaks softly and carries a knife of all basketball players in general. Mm-hmm. 1:10:10 Um, sorry for the water that is getting wasted, um, right now. [laughs] But Russell Westbrook has not recorded a game with a four for 25 shooting performance. 1:10:19 His lowest field goal percentage in a game with at least 20 attempts was on April 22nd, 2012, against the Los Angeles Lakers, where he shot three for 22. No, you don't have to cut that. 1:10:30 That on the spot, that on the spot pull of statistics is why you are at The Ringer, and we are at No Cap Space. I just wasted a ton of water doing that. I understand. Well, no, but here's the thing. 1:10:41 [laughs] It's like you don't hate anything else but me. Like, that's kind of odd. No, I really... [laughs] I, I ac- That's, that's not true. 1:10:47 Like we've asked you about hating everything and everything, and it's like- I really hate Russ... you just hate me. I'm like, I don't hate, but I just don't like his game. Mm-mm. Nah. Yeah. All right. 1:10:58 I'm pa- I wanna, I wanna pay for you guys to do, like, a KOC and Chris Vernon. Like, that's, that's where we're headed. I'm... and I'm ready for that. I'll pay the difference. We can get it done. Yeah. Play by, girl. 1:11:10 Oh, by the way, one, one more way in which Cori Cla- Close is like a, a bear. You'd much rather encounter her in the woods than a man. Damn. [laughs] That's, that's... 1:11:21 I, I, honestly- [laughs] I, I wanna just cut it right there. [laughs] I think that'd be the best place for it. 1:11:26 Sarah, any final words of wisdom for us or our audience before we- I don't know that I've had any words of wisdom today. [laughs] I don't know if that's what I would call it. Um, I think... No, I think we got... 1:11:37 Well, did you wanna talk about the NBA and the WNBA and all of that, that stuff, or... What I say- Yeah, let's get to that. Uh, maybe I'll have to come back. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 1:11:48 I, I, like- Yeah, we can't, we can't give all of this just... [laughs] No, we gotta keep the people coming back. Yeah, we gotta put it behind, we gotta put it behind the paywall. That could be... 1:11:55 Yeah, that could be the paywall episode. I'm ready for the war. This, this is, this is the opening salvo of what will be a multi, multi-part installments. 1:12:06 Sarah Tsoe from The Ringer, thank you so much for joining us, and we thank you all for joining us as well. This has been Ball Up Top, a women's basketball podcast on No Cap Space. Again, presented by Home Field. 1:12:20 Shout out to our buddy DealsMakeBeats. He hangs in Denver and has made all of our intro and outro music. We thank him a ton for that. And folks, that is all the time we have on Ball Up Top. 1:12:30 Find us on Substack, on YouTube, anywhere you get your podcast. Rate us, review us, give us five stars, and we will see you all next week. 1:12:37 [outro music]
